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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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So some guy sent me an angry e-mail about a line from my comments on EVO on the best SNES list. The line was:
"EVO proves once and for all that creationist theory and evolution can peacefully coexist, something that those bucktoothed morons in Kansas can't quite seem to grasp."
Then some member of the God Patrol sent me a message saying that I was the moron, and that evolution cannot fit into creationist theory because it is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible.
I sent him a long detailed e-mail explaining that within the context of Christianity, the Old Testament is not required to be taken literally. Christ himself taught through parables - short contrived stories with a moral lesson embedded therein - so it is not unreasonable to assume that the stories handed down to us in the Old Testament are parables themselves. Furthermore, the Bible was never intended as a book of science; it was intended as a book of law. The Bible's sole purpose is moral guidance, and in that regard, it is largely flawless. In other matters, it is not.
So then the guy responded again with a bunch of Genesis quotes about letting there be light and OMG they never mention any sort of "big bang" and blah blah blah, and it was really long and I didn't feel like reading all of it. So then I told him to fuck off, because it became apparent I wasn't going to sway his beliefs and I really didn't feel like carrying on a long pointless correspondence when my time could be better spent finishing a new article. Then he e-mailed me back, and I ignored it, because I'm done with him.
But really, are creationism and evolution diametrically opposed? I say nay.
Creationism, in its simplest form, states that God created the universe.
Evolution, in its simplest form, states that man evolved from microscopic organics over millions of years.
There is nothing in evolutionary theory that discounts the notion that God had his finger in the stirring pot.
And there is nothing within a reasonable creationist theory, one based upon St. Thomas Aquinas's First Mover theory, that discounts the possibility of evolution.
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S. McCracken
Moderator
Title: Enforcer
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2171
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While I'm an atheist and I find the entire idea of religion silly and sophomoric, I completely agree that for those people who do believe in Christianity can believe in evolution as well without any real conflict. Like you said, the Bible is "law" and not science.
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Tebor
Moderator
Title: Master of the Universe
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 6088
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Wait, if the Bible is law... Then Judge Dredd is The Savior!
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 "If you will not tell me, I will hurt people!!!" -Nuclear Man
"Do you hear? The alpha and the omega. Death and rebirth. And as you die, so will I be reborn!" - Skeletor
8341 unread forum updates since I left (2/7/14)... Uh-oh. |
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Valdronius
Moderator
Title: SydLexia COO
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 4465
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I believe they can coexist, though the absence of 'missing link' fossils is somewhat damning.
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| Klimbatize wrote: |
| A Hispanic dude living in Arizona knows a lot of Latinas? That's fucking odd. |
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Ross Rifle
Title: Rock N Roll God
Joined: Oct 29 2006
Location: Chilliwack, BC
Posts: 4844
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See, I always believed that Adam and Eve were actually monkeys. We slowly 'evolved' into human beings over time. Yet something fucked up between Cro-Magnon and Homo Sapien, and we became arrogant fools. If Adam and Eve really were apes, and we are modelled after God, then God is a monkey. But humans as a whole are far to condescending to believe that we were created by a creature as simple as a stupid monkey. All religious writings were by humans, so of course everyone in the writings (ie. Adam and Eve) are depicted as humans.
On that note, God sent his son Jesus down to Earth to die for our sins. After many failed attempts with his other ape-children, he used a human to convey the message to humans. But that just made us more arrogant.
The Darwin came and spoke the truth (or half of it), but the Christians were all "fuck that shit, you're an idiot". As various things happened over time, humans became worse and worse, and fucked themselves until God gave up, and said "fuck you guys, I'm gonna poke a fuckin hole in your atmosphere, you ignorant douchebags"
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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
Posts: 12294
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I won't post until I get to hear what Vampyre has to say about this.
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Chile Guy
Title: Token Latino Otaku
Joined: Apr 14 2008
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
Posts: 479
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Religion is such a hard issue...basically, most part of the Holy Bible is a contradictory book of unimaginative stuff...if that Genesis part is true, then we're all related and blarblarblar.
And all of that because of EVO: Search For Eden? Damn, these fanatics see the Devil everywhere...
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Red_Mage
Title: Palutina's Guardian
Joined: Mar 18 2008
Location: Eastern Illinois U
Posts: 251
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| S. McCracken wrote: |
| While I'm an atheist and I find the entire idea of religion silly and sophomoric, I completely agree that for those people who do believe in Christianity can believe in evolution as well without any real conflict. Like you said, the Bible is "law" and not science. |
You've kinda summed up my beliefs on teh matter. I'm a Christian myself, but I piss off a lot of other Christians by not completely abandoning all fascets of logical thought...like science.
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erock
Title: likes to party
Joined: Dec 21 2007
Location: Phoenix. its hot outside
Posts: 1219
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I remember reading some articles that dissect Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Being that they did not take the Fruit or whatnot they had no idea of time or its function. So supposedly they could have been chillin naked for millions of years. Also from my archeology and anthropology classes most scientists believe neanderthals lived during the same period as the early modern man as the evolution line isnt really a line to them, its more of a tree with branches that spread out and just stop. So maybe neanderthals were the groups that the early bible people couldnt interact with. Maybe they were all killed in the flood thing.
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Char Aznable
Title: Char Classicâ„¢
Joined: Jul 24 2006
Location: Robot Boombox HQ
Posts: 7542
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I believe that evolution is the how and not the why. God is a supreme being, so therefore to him millions of years can seem like a week.
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Bluey
Title: 99 Beserkers
Joined: Jul 18 2007
Location: Thirteenth Street
Posts: 309
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My beliefs basically mirror what Syd said. It's possible and plausible that creationism and evolution coexist, the Bible is meant to be a guide and not a hard-fast rule, et cetera.
I've always thought that it was possible to have both faith and reason, but since I'm surrounded by so many fanatics (both pro- and anti-religion), I started to feel like I was the only one who thought so. Glad to see I'm not.
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  - This is Bluey's health meter. When it runs out he has to quit the forum.
My Sydapedia page lists my game collection and friend codes, if you're interested. |
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
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I believe in both while acknowledging that neither account for everything and are incomplete. It's important to recognize the parable nature of the OT like Syd mentioned, while also recognizing that evolution is just a theory. The lack of a significant amount of fossils showing transitional phases as Val mentioned is troubling, as is the Cambrian explosion, where the ancestors of all current species just appeared without any clear string of evolutionary predecessors.
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Tebor
Moderator
Title: Master of the Universe
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 6088
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I had a bus driver who would sometimes tell me about the lies of evolution.
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 "If you will not tell me, I will hurt people!!!" -Nuclear Man
"Do you hear? The alpha and the omega. Death and rebirth. And as you die, so will I be reborn!" - Skeletor
8341 unread forum updates since I left (2/7/14)... Uh-oh. |
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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
Posts: 12294
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TheRoboSleuth
Title: Sleuth Mark IV
Joined: Aug 08 2006
Location: The Gritty Future
Posts: 2739
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Damn, its a evolution versus creationism debate. I'm gonna be here a while.
Okay, some quick notes. First, when a scientist says that something is accepted as a theory, they aren't saying that its up in the air. Before you can say something is a theory in the scientific sense, you need a very large amount of supporting hypothesis, which must be verified several times. The vast majority of the scientific community needs to be in agreement, and it should be able to make future predictions with accuracy. Our current understanding of all biology is based on the theory of evolution. We adapt to deal with pest crops, an ever updating flu virus, even the practice of animal husbandry is based on the idea that selective breeding can produce certain desired traits.
Okay, fossils. Keep in mind that when you ask for fossils you are asking for something that has a random chance of being buried for several hundred million years. This is hard stuff to find. There are holes to be sure, but one should not assume that just because we haven't found a fossil that our theory will collapse. The fossil record itself is very suggestive of evolution, full of transitional critters, slight variations based on geography, and a general increase in complexity.
In addition, the absence of knowledge is not proof positive of a divine being. A missing fossil or the lack of an explanation does not mean that god snapped his fingers to will it into being. In all honesty, the burden of proof falls upon the more unlikely occurrence.
So then, about creationism versus evolution. So, evolution is a widely accepted (in the scientific community) theory with practical applications and an excellent track-record for predicting future phenomana. Creationism, as a scientific hypothesis, has little support in both the number of scientists and actual evidence. Its a simple fact that proving the existence of a supernatural being like god is impossible. So thats a strike. Creationism has no evidence going for it really, most often attacks to undermine evolutionary theory (like irreducible complexity, where a given organ like an eye is presumed to be only useful if it comes complete, that is, you cannot develop an eye because evolution could not select for it until its useful. Scientists have since tracked the evolution of the eye, from simple clusters of light sensetive cells through a slight recession to detect direction, to the keyhole as possesed by the nautilous, on and on), operating on the idea that if your opponent is wrong than you are right.
I'm an athiest. I have no reason to believe in any of the vast myriad of gods that have been revered. That being said, you're asking a scientific question verus a philisophical one. Its the difference of, when asked the question "why is the teapot whistling", the answers "because the water is boiling" and "because I wanted tea". Personally I question the value of a being in a system that doesn't need his existence, but some people find the idea of a system that runs itself as divinely elegant.
Point is, there is no battle here except where politics and religion insist. Evolution is the mechanics for life on earth. Creationism is not science, but the idea that a God designed all this to work this way is acceptable.
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Murdar Machene
New Member
Title: bimmy
Joined: Nov 06 2005
Location: the black warriors turf
Posts: 3207
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Robot Cum Shoe, thank you for clarifying those 9th grade science class concepts. I thought that gravity wasn't well established because it was just a "theory".
Regarding bible fucktards; I don't see how you could even attempt to take anything from Genesis literally. It says that people are made from dirt, for fuck's sake.
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Red_Mage
Title: Palutina's Guardian
Joined: Mar 18 2008
Location: Eastern Illinois U
Posts: 251
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| Murdar Machene wrote: |
Robot Cum Shoe, thank you for clarifying those 9th grade science class concepts. I thought that gravity wasn't well established because it was just a "theory".
Regarding bible fucktards; I don't see how you could even attempt to take anything from Genesis literally. It says that people are made from dirt, for fuck's sake. |
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
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| RobotGumshoe wrote: |
| The fossil record itself is very suggestive of evolution, full of transitional critters. |
Not really. The fossil record shows a steady change from simple to complex organisms, but virtually no "mutant" creatures that show the bridge between the separate stages. It certainly is possible that just not enough animals were fossilized for us to study, explaining the gap in the record. That would also explain the extreme divergence that the Cambrian period represents.
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UltimateFierce
Title: Nippon Yankee
Joined: Jan 17 2007
Location: Right here...
Posts: 509
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Religion... They always shove it down your throat.
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Crazy_Bastard
Title: CeeBee
Joined: Feb 25 2007
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 489
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| UltimateFierce wrote: |
| Religion... They always shove it down your throat. |
tell me about it
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Laminated Sky
Title: Extra Crispy
Joined: Feb 25 2008
Location: Etobicoke
Posts: 885
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Everything I know about religion I learned from watching The Colbert Report. I also learned one line from some crackhead:
Ye who is without sin cast the first rock, and I shall smoketh thee!
As for evolution I really don't care what I've evolved from; a monkey a fish whatever,
religion or evolution who cares when your dead your dead.
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 I'm so bananas I'm showing up to your open casket,
to fill it up with explosive gases,
and close it back,
with a lit match in it,
while I sit back, and just hope it catches.
Blow you to fragments,
laugh,
roll you, and smoke the ashes.
http://history.sydlexia.com/index.php?title=Laminated_Sky
Signature subject to change without notice. |
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Valdronius
Moderator
Title: SydLexia COO
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 4465
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| Char Aznable wrote: |
| I believe that evolution is the how and not the why. God is a supreme being, so therefore to him millions of years can seem like a week. |
My belief exactly. The '6 days of creation' are not 6 literal days to me, but long periods of time. There's even a passage in Psalms I believe that says something like '1000 years is as a moment to God.'
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| Klimbatize wrote: |
| A Hispanic dude living in Arizona knows a lot of Latinas? That's fucking odd. |
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Douche McCallister
Moderator
Title: DOO-SHAY
Joined: Jan 26 2007
Location: Private Areas
Posts: 5672
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Man...religion...where do I start...I am an agnostic/scientologist. However in Psychology class my head got screwed up, the Professor said "Everything has a starting point when it was created. When was GOD's starting point, when was the universe's? That really messed my head up.
I definitly don't believe in heaven or hell, but if there is one cool. Everyone has beliefs but I feel it just helps then get through their lives. I had a couple deep conversations like "What if when we dream thats when we are really alive, bad dreams would be like going to hell and what not." or "What if the solar system/universe is just an atom of another larger being?"
But seriously Noah and all that other bullshit? Come on people...
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Ross Rifle
Title: Rock N Roll God
Joined: Oct 29 2006
Location: Chilliwack, BC
Posts: 4844
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Everyone knows the Bible is fiction. It's just as a much a fantasy as Star Wars and The Labyrinth
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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| Douche McCallister wrote: |
| When was GOD's starting point, when was the universe's? That really messed my head up. |
The causation theory of God states that our universe is guided by principles of cause and effect. Everything that happens occurs for a reason. But there has to be a starting point. If we believe that the universe was created by a Big Bang as many scientists believe, we still have no definite answer as to what caused it. There has to be uncaused cause. This uncaused cause is God. It may not be the Christian God. It may not even be sentient. But is God in the simplest sense of the word, the Creator.
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