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The Opponent
Title: Forum Battle WINNER
Joined: Feb 24 2010
Location: The Danger Zone
Posts: 3495
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I can only imagine that Zimmerman feels pretty smug right now, what with him being famous and all because of the attention this is getting.
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 I'm not a bad enough dude, but I am an edgy little shit. I'll do what I can. |
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aeonic
Title: Sporadic Poster
Joined: Nov 19 2009
Location: Kissimmee, FL
Posts: 2747
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| Sarge wrote: |
What aeonic said, seriously.
Also, banning ownership completely and concealed carry laws are two completely different things. Of course it's harder to get guns when they are strictly illegal, but do you think a deranged kid gives any thought at all to concealed carry laws in his area before rampaging? Come on. |
Not to mention that you can still buy propellant, or even make your own. If guns did become illegal, you'd see a lot more zip guns in action.
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 Who likes role-playing games? Me. Way too goddamn much. |
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3112
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As much of a pinko liberal as I am, I really do love the US, and my study of cultures around the world makes me appreciate what we have here all the more. That said, I don't think guns are the problem, it's the attitude we have about them in the US that's the problem. In other countries, their histories were tied to their most basic traditions. They could trace their histories back to basic origins.They grew up smacking each other with rocks, then went on to civilized eras, then started slicing each other up with blades, and after hundreds of years, moved on to guns. They all built up thousands of ideas worth of identity in order to be where they are now.
The United States barely registers in terms of world history and civilization. Sure, we've left our mark, but compared to the legacy of other nations, we're still damned young. In US history, nearly all of our major, well-known events involve guns in some way. The American Revolution, War of 1812, wars against the natives, Civil War, our imperial ages, World War 1/2, and tons of other milestones that most Americans can name-drop very quickly. They all had firearms associated around them, and we developed this attitude around guns that held them as important tools to achieve some great victory or another. I feel bad because I read a few persuasive papers espousing similar ideas, and I basically just did them a disservice by oversimplifying them.
What I'm saying is, we have gun worship due to their usefulness in giving power to an individual, which I believe should be a sobering thought, not an empowering one. Taking life or engaging in a conflict involving firearms is not something that should be taken lightly. I've gone to gun shows, gun stores, and even learned how to build basic firearms and explosives from home. I've heard every fantasy from people talking about burglars breaking into their homes or seeing muggers (in the middle of Appalachia, for god's sake), all the way up starting revolutions or protecting ourselves from invaders. It'd be nice if everyone here knew how to safely and responsibly operate a firearm, but that's certainly not the case. I don't think gun laws will necessarily solve the problems here (or anywhere), but I do believe keeping them out of the hands of those who don't appreciate the weight of their actions should be a goal.
Also, post-script: I hate people like Spike Lee joining in on this. Here we are, pointing out problems and trying to have a discussion, but numbskulls like him are posting Zimmerman's parents' address and other unhelpful (in many ways) shit.
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 So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind. |
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
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| Alowishus wrote: |
| Guns should just be illegal |
Yes, because if we make guns illegal, criminals would stop buying guns on the black market too, right? Right?
Listen, punishing law-abiding citizens by outlawing guns in a vain attempt to lower crime by compromising political liberties is foolhardy. No matter what you do, criminals are going to get guns somehow, leaving regular citizens at their mercy.
For decades, Chicago unconstitutionally banned handguns in order to decrease the crime rate. It only went up. Recently, after a couple Supreme Court decisions, the law was overturned as unconstitutional, and the crime rate has gone down. There are still shootings on the South Side, but the rate is down, and would be way down if the city wasn't so understaffed when it comes to policemen (we are currently a few thousand officers below capacity and have been for a while).
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
Posts: 2515
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| Cattivo wrote: |
| Alowishus wrote: |
| Guns should just be illegal |
Yes, because if we make guns illegal, criminals would stop buying guns on the black market too, right? Right?
Listen, punishing law-abiding citizens by outlawing guns in a vain attempt to lower crime by compromising political liberties is foolhardy. No matter what you do, criminals are going to get guns somehow, leaving regular citizens at their mercy.
For decades, Chicago unconstitutionally banned handguns in order to decrease the crime rate. It only went up. Recently, after a couple Supreme Court decisions, the law was overturned as unconstitutional, and the crime rate has gone down. There are still shootings on the South Side, but the rate is down, and would be way down if the city wasn't so understaffed when it comes to policemen (we are currently a few thousand officers below capacity and have been for a while). |
>Cattivo Logic.
Did i not just show you how in the UK where guns are illegal there has been one school shooting ever. While in the US there has been probably about 100...or did you just glide over that fact?
It's convenient to ignore information when it doesn't support your argument isn't it?
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
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There's school shootings everywhere. It's not solely an American problem. Responsible gun owners who keep their firearms locked up, away from troubled minors, should not be punished for idiots that allow their kids access. Just like alcohol should not be illegal just because a certain amount of people cannot handle its effects and become addicted and end up harming others.
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
Posts: 2515
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It's easy to say that.
Yes there is school shootings everywhere. There are more in the USA.
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Vaenamoenen
Joined: Mar 18 2010
Location: Tuonela
Posts: 299
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Now that you mention it, I noticed that in every school shooting in Finland (three so far) the perpetrator has been an adult with a legal firearm. But yes, in the US most seem to be teens.
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
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| Alowishus wrote: |
| There are more in the USA. |
I wonder what the per capita figure is? I'm too lazy to google it, and it might not even be something statisticians bother calculating.
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
Posts: 2515
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I can't find any of that, and i am not going to go through census data or whatever to work it out lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership
I wasn't expecting USA to be top. I lol'd at Northern Ireland at 6.0 but then again the ceasefire was at least 4 years away when data was collected. So that's understandable, being a period of high terrorism.
I would say NI is an anomaly in that respect. The rest of the UK certainly is low in both counts.
What's even more interesting is that US firearm related death is more suicide related rather than homicide.
However the comparison of a country such as NI which is smaller than probably smallest state in the US with the US itself is not appropriate.
Overall very outdated data.
The comparison of South Africas gun ownership and homicide rate would certainly seem to support your argument Cattivo. However i would question the reliability and appropriateness of the usage of such data especially being so far apart in terms of age.
Also statistics only tell you so much. I feel in this case although interesting to look at that statistics are not really appropriate. Just how using GDP to work out country wealth is not appropriate.
Extremely biased figures, does not take into account geographical/hierarchical distribution and usefulness.
It's like how in the 50s they used Christallers Central Place Theory to work out where people would go to shop. A local centre then smaller towns around it. Theoretically and statistically it was sound. People would go from satellite towns to local centre.
However it didn't take into account actual behaviour of people. Just because there is a local centre doesn't mean people wouldn't go to other satellite towns or even other local centres. Just because it's logical doesn't mean it works in reality. The world is a very irrational place.
The same can be said for these stats. They prove nothing.
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Fighter_McWarrior
Title: Gun of Brixton
Joined: Jun 05 2011
Location: Down by the River
Posts: 1087
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This has turned into a gun rights debate, which is stupid. What isn't stupid is the debate about self defense laws that allow people to respond to fist fights with gunfire. That's what we should really be talking about here.
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 "Spanish bombs, yot' quierro y finito
Yo te querda oh ma corazón
Oh ma corazón, oh ma corazón" - The Clash, Spanish Bombs |
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justdrop
Title: Supreme Overlord
Joined: Jan 11 2012
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 558
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"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."- Winston Churchill |
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
Posts: 2515
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| Fighter_McWarrior wrote: |
| This has turned into a gun rights debate, which is stupid. |
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Vert1
Joined: Aug 28 2011
Posts: 537
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Optimist With Doubts
Title: Titlating
Joined: Dec 17 2007
Posts: 5042
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Is it possible to split posts from a topic, if so we should do that.
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Drew Linky
Wizard
Joined: Jun 12 2009
Posts: 4209
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I wouldn't bother if I were you. The original topic has become all but lost.
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https://discord.gg/homestuck is where you can find me literally 99% of the time. Stop on by if you feel like it, we're a nice crowd. |
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