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Occupy movements


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Vaenamoenen
Joined: Mar 18 2010
Location: Tuonela
PostPosted: Nov 17 2011 04:31 am Reply with quote Back to top

lavalarva wrote:
Isn't that simply capitalism though? I believe free market implies minimum restriction from the government. It's that part I don't like.

In reality, it's not a black and white type of thing. There is no such thing as 100% free market, every market is just more or less conrolled. I find the functionality of free market and private ownership to be is contextual. In some cases relatively free market is perfect (such as producing and selling material goods), whereas in other cases there simply is a need for heavy public control (prison, police force, etc.)

Cattivo: This page/thread is already pretty long, so I won't quote your reply entirely. Your posts are well-informed, and I enjoy reading them, despite my obviously different political outlook.

It's true that Italy, Belgium, France, Greece and Portugal are in a very dangerous situation. However, most of Europe still has lower debt in relation to the GDB than US, for example (what, arround 95% now?). Almost half of the European countries (smaller ones, naturally) have lower debt-to-GDB ratio than 50%. High costs of welfare state and its impact on the difficulty of dealing with this is a fact, but it needs to be added that this crisis has also to do with banks on the old continent as well.

Stuff like cheap health-care is sweet and it produces happy people, so it's understandable why people rather not throw it away. I'm glad I'm among many who think that high (but fair) taxes are well worth it. Even debt is worth it, as long as it's done right.
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
PostPosted: Nov 17 2011 12:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Vaenamoenen wrote:
However, most of Europe still has lower debt in relation to the GDB than US, for example (what, arround 95% now?).

Yeah, it's approaching 100% now, which is why I said the US will be learning a lesson soon. It wasn't always that way, but has gotten extremely bad the past decade.

Your posts are well-informed too V, we just have different political ideologies, as you said.
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Nov 17 2011 12:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Vaenamoenen wrote:
Stuff like cheap health-care is sweet and it produces happy people, so it's understandable why people rather not throw it away.

If there's one thing I learned from Sid Meier's Civilization, it's that you don't keep society productive and solvent by making people happy.
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username
Title: owner of a lonely heart
Joined: Jul 06 2007
Location: phoenix, az usa
PostPosted: Nov 23 2011 01:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Image


Klimbatize wrote:
I'll eat a turkey sandwich while blowing my load

 
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Atma
Title: Dragoon
Joined: Apr 29 2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
PostPosted: Nov 23 2011 03:27 pm Reply with quote Back to top

^ LOL
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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
PostPosted: Nov 28 2011 05:15 am Reply with quote Back to top

Some interesting new amazon reviews for a brand of pepper spray: http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Technology-56895-Stream-Pepper/product-reviews/B0058EOAUE

"Product Warnng: This procuct multiplies protesters
I casually used this product to try to disperse a small band of non-violent campers who had locked their arms together. Although initially it seemed to be effective, it took two applications! The worst part is that the next day they multiplied exponentially! Now what?

One positive outcome, I did receive a paid vacation for my efforts. "


"Whenever I need to breezily inflict discipline on unruly citizens, I know I can trust Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 Stream, 1.3% Red Band/1.3% Blue Band Pepper Spray to get the job done! The power of reason is no match for Defense Technology's superior repression power. When I reach for my can of Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 Stream, 1.3% Red Band/1.3% Blue Band Pepper Spray, I know that even the mighty First Amendment doesn't stand a chance against its many scovil units of civil rights suppression."


"Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
 
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Jan 21 2012 06:19 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Super bump. What is happening in the US with this? I haven't really heard much about it apart from stuff here in Belfast:



and i guess this guy from my University lone wolfing it:



LOL how did i forget this. Not entirely related but meh. Pretty much this American tv network interviews this old Irish guy about the financial crisis in Ireland, Hilarity Ensues.


Also if you don't know, the Celtic Tiger was basically when Ireland was an economic powerhouse in the early 2000s but the property developers fucked it up and were greedy selling property which basically led to the existence of hundreds of ghost estates which were never finished.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_estate

In my degree in planning it's often called upon as an example as the failure of capitalism. Especially under marxist critique.

There's a few up North here but it's more prevalent down in the Republic.
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@om*d
Title: Dorakyura
Joined: Jul 10 2010
Location: Castlevania
PostPosted: Jan 21 2012 06:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I like the end of that last video, where the reporter tells him Michael Flatley is from Chicago. "Fuck off!" Laughing


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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Jan 21 2012 06:38 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The man is a God.
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
PostPosted: Jan 23 2012 02:27 pm Reply with quote Back to top

There hasn't been much news about it stateside because of the winter weather. I did read today about some church desecration though: http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/ows-campers-desecrating-new-york-churches.html

And here's a similar article from Fox News, but with stronger rhetoric, heh: http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2012/01/23/church-desecration-occupiers-going-hell-after-one
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Klimbatize
2010 NES Champ
Title: 2011 Picnic/Death Champ
Joined: Mar 15 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV
PostPosted: Jan 23 2012 02:32 pm Reply with quote Back to top

They got kicked out of a lot of parks. Many people planned on staying through the winter, but eventually cities decided they were costing to much money for the added security and kicked them out.

You can protest, as long as you don't do it for too long, apparently.
Cattivo wrote:
There hasn't been much news about it stateside because of the winter weather. I did read today about some church desecration though: http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/ows-campers-desecrating-new-york-churches.html

And here's a similar article from Fox News, but with stronger rhetoric, heh: http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2012/01/23/church-desecration-occupiers-going-hell-after-one

I don't like judging a movement of hundreds of thousands of people based on the actions of a few. That'd be the same as me saying the entire Tea Party movement is racist because of some posters I saw at one.


Pretty much the greatest thread of all time: http://www.sydlexia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14789

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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Jan 23 2012 03:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

As far as the whole "anti-capitalism" thing goes, I hate the economies of the world being judged on guessing. There's a ton of money being bet on houses and nothing bad will happen again. Good economy! There's a bunch of houses that are supposed to be built, but are not being built. Good economy! I really don't think we should be depending on the dow/nasdaq/etc. entirely as a way of looking at the economy. It just seems like it leaves out so many important factors.


So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind.
 
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
PostPosted: Jan 23 2012 04:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Klimbatize wrote:
I don't like judging a movement of hundreds of thousands of people based on the actions of a few. That'd be the same as me saying the entire Tea Party movement is racist because of some posters I saw at one.

I have to agree, but I think it's noteworthy that their "weakest links" are alienating groups that would be inclined to assist them. That church can't be expected to help them anymore, and I think one of those articles mentioned a rabbi disavowing any connection to the movement after these incidents (although the mentioning of a rabbi seems odd, considering these seem to be christian churches not jewish temples. it's a bit confusing).
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Fighter_McWarrior
Title: Gun of Brixton
Joined: Jun 05 2011
Location: Down by the River
PostPosted: Jan 23 2012 04:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Greg the White wrote:
I really don't think we should be depending on the dow/nasdaq/etc. entirely as a way of looking at the economy. It just seems like it leaves out so many important factors.


The stock market is always jumping at shadows. It could be looking strong one day and then crash the next because something in Greece scared it.

The continual drop in unemployment is one of the best ways to tell that the economy is improving. Hiring and housing are always the last two things to improve in a recession because they represent the largest investments for businesses and people, respectively.
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Jan 23 2012 05:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Honestly i expect this all to die out soon. They were never going to make a difference, you had to be a fool to think that. I do think that there attempts were admirable and i agree with them on a lot of points. I do think capitalism has a lot of flaws but i don't see it going anywhere soon. Especially such a small group of people.
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Drew Linky
Wizard
Joined: Jun 12 2009
PostPosted: Jan 24 2012 12:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

Alowishus wrote:
Honestly i expect this all to die out soon. They were never going to make a difference, you had to be a fool to think that. I do think that there attempts were admirable and i agree with them on a lot of points. I do think capitalism has a lot of flaws but i don't see it going anywhere soon. Especially such a small group of people.

The problem, as I'm sure has been stated before, is the lack of organization. Or a leader. Or a definitive /purpose/. Most of them didn't even know why they were there. Only that they were hacked off because of the economy.


https://discord.gg/homestuck is where you can find me literally 99% of the time. Stop on by if you feel like it, we're a nice crowd.
 
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Fighter_McWarrior
Title: Gun of Brixton
Joined: Jun 05 2011
Location: Down by the River
PostPosted: Jan 24 2012 01:31 am Reply with quote Back to top

I guess that's what I hated about the Occupy movement. I have a problem with people who want to protest without knowing what they're protesting, or try to get involved in the process without knowing anything about it.

I graduated into this mess, so I was hacked off about the economy too. But instead of camping out in a public park, I got a job. Then I worked hard until I got a better job.

Student loans paid! No government forgiveness required!
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Drew Linky
Wizard
Joined: Jun 12 2009
PostPosted: Jan 24 2012 08:24 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Fighter_McWarrior wrote:
I guess that's what I hated about the Occupy movement. I have a problem with people who want to protest without knowing what they're protesting, or try to get involved in the process without knowing anything about it.

I graduated into this mess, so I was hacked off about the economy too. But instead of camping out in a public park, I got a job. Then I worked hard until I got a better job.

Student loans paid! No government forgiveness required!

Many forget to factor in inherent laziness. And the failure to research job openings. I'm sure they didn't say "Oh ho, I can get a philosophy major and bull shit my way through EVERYTHING!" but it doesn't excuse their surprise at not finding many jobs for philosophers once they graduated. That goes for the majority of them. Occupational Outlook Handbook...


https://discord.gg/homestuck is where you can find me literally 99% of the time. Stop on by if you feel like it, we're a nice crowd.
 
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Jan 24 2012 08:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

It's the message that "you need college or else no matter what" that's causing a lot of trouble. Banks need money from student loans, so they'll make up all kinds of bullshit figures to get kids going to banks. I've been doing part-time jobs since I was 16, and in a few years, I've moved up to a job that provides a comfortable living, meanwhile kids my age are just graduating with little to no work experience and expecting their "million more in a lifetime" right now.

We need laws to keep jobs in our country, re-evaluate how we pay for work done(with either benefits or pay), and urge kids growing up to get some kind of real work experience before they're 25.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still liberal as hell. The fact that the 1% de-value anything resembling actual work in order to line their pockets with insane, unspendable amounts of money and use the rest to treat the economy like a casino is what killed us. That said, I understand how hard it is to get a job. That doesn't excuse the rest of the people out there who need to just get a part-time job, stick to it as hard as you can, and make yourself valuable to keep climbing, because that paper you got from college and ability to fill in scantrons well doesn't mean squat if you have no history of reliability, work ethic, or ability to cope with being treated like shit for a minimal amount of money.


So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind.
 
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jan 24 2012 08:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

There's no such thing as unspendable amounts of money. I want a fucking castle. I still want central heating and all that. But I want the exterior to built from hand-chiseled stone blocks. To build something like what I want on American soil would cost upwards of a billion dollars. I also want a working Final Fantasy-style airship, with a wooden frame and everything.
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JRA
Joined: Sep 17 2007
Location: The Opium Trail
PostPosted: Jan 24 2012 09:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
I also want a working Final Fantasy-style airship, with a wooden frame and everything.


Why? So it could get shot down with a potato gun?


There are a lot of what if's in life Donny. What if I hit you really hard in the face, knocked yo shit to the back of yo skull? What if I....had you girl gargle my nuts? The fact remains, you are a fuckin mutant.
 
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Fighter_McWarrior
Title: Gun of Brixton
Joined: Jun 05 2011
Location: Down by the River
PostPosted: Jan 24 2012 09:04 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I'm a liberal too, so I'm not totally divorced from sympathy. On one hand, I feel bad for some of these kids. I mean, the message for years has been: Go to college, it doesn't matter what you major in because you'll be able to find a job.

Now that unemployment is at 8%, basically because of the actions of some big banks, that's not true anymore. But that doesn't help the kid who picked History as a major and just graduated with it.

But what these Occupy people can't seem to grasp is that if you forgive everyone's student loans, you set a precedent that student loans can be forgiven. Which means that anytime a bank looks at it, they're going to see a huge risk because government could sweep in at any time and insure that they either don't get their money or have to deal with the government to get it (which can be a lengthy process). So their willingness to grant student loans in the first place is going to go down, which fucks over even more students.

Quote:
Many forget to factor in inherent laziness. And the failure to research job openings. I'm sure they didn't say "Oh ho, I can get a philosophy major and bull shit my way through EVERYTHING!" but it doesn't excuse their surprise at not finding many jobs for philosophers once they graduated. That goes for the majority of them. Occupational Outlook Handbook...


See that's the part that drives me nuts about these guys. Jobs are out there. With brand new 4 year degree, I worked my ass off at Walmart stocking shelves for 6 months. But I paid off my loans with that money, bought a car with that money and eventually moved up into a real career job by applying to every single position that opened up across the country in my field. In other words: I fucking earned it . Being only a B average student in with a poli-sci major, if I can do it, anyone can. But a good first step is to move out of whatever park you're squatting in, take a shower and go out job hunting for the first thing you can find.
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Jan 24 2012 10:38 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Greg the White wrote:
It's the message that "you need college or else no matter what" that's causing a lot of trouble.

I can't agree more with this.

Everyone goes to University these days. I can't speak for the American system but here the education system is becoming fucking ridiculous.

Basically to go to University here you have to do your GCSEs and then A levels. Everyone does GCSEs you have to do them to basically function in society.

You do your A levels in 3-5 subjects (normally take 3) and there's the whole thing here that my parents would always joke to me about: "oh back in my day exams were hard".

The thing is that isn't far from the truth and it's getting worse even since i left school. Unless you don't answer half the fucking paper the pass rate (C or above) is extremely high - it's in the high 90s across the country.

The asking grades for Universities range from Ds up to A*s and a huge amount of pupils get As.

Now ask yourself is the system really functioning well if basically everyone is coming out with A grades? No there's a severe disproportionate.

Everyone is going to University and it's actually dragging University down. They are dumbing down exams and everyone is just drifting through. Like it really is to the extent that (me and my mother did geography at the same university - 30 years apart). The stuff she was taught in the 80s in secondary school is now taught in third year university and the stuff she was taught at university is no longer taught because it's "to hard".

Personally i found the work extremely underwhelming and not challenging at all at University. Basically what i am saying and i am hoping i have conveyed is that University isn't worth a fucking damn anymore because everyone goes.

Everyone goes to University and it's because they have dumbed down the system so everyone passes. University used to be for the highly intelligent and If i had my way they should make the exams harder and allow less admittance because all they are doing so far is driving up the asking grades and that isn't having any effect at all.

EDIT: On student loans: it's all changed again like i said back in the 80s when my mother went to University:

1. Less people went.
2. There was NO fees. You went to university because you were intelligent not because it's a mandatory part of life.
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Beach Bum
Joined: Dec 08 2010
Location: At the pants party.
PostPosted: Jan 25 2012 12:12 am Reply with quote Back to top

I think my problem with the education system is that it is practically a cake walk to get through high school with a decent enough GPA to get into college. School standards are so low I had people in my AP English classes that still had to sound out words when reading out loud. Kind of unacceptable in my opinion. Then when these same people graduate, they get told by everyone: "You have to go to college right now or you'll never get a job!"

Well I didn't listen and I'm a lot better off for it. I think if I'd gone into college straight from high school I'd have never been prepared or motivated to actually do it. I spent something around 5 years working before I went back to school and when I got here I truly appreciated just how shitty retail and food service can be, something I'd have never been able to appreciate if I'd gone right here.

A lot of people still think they can be anything they want to be and are special butterflies. So they choose their major without a thought, and if they somehow pull off graduating they seem shocked when no one will hire them. Well that business degree sure wasn't such a good idea was it? Should have maybe thought about what people need and not what you have always wanted to be.

I'd love to teach history myself, in fact it was what I was planning on doing, but before I enrolled I talked with a principal of one of the local districts that I know. He told me for a single history opening he can get as many as 300 applications, for a single English opening 250-400 depending on grade level, and yet only 4-5 for math and science. So I researched a little and decided on Accounting since I'm pretty good at it and it was actually a field with job openings. Sure it isn't teaching, but I can get a teaching certificate with an extra 10-15 hours of classes and teach math if I need to fall back on something!

If you can't be bothered to do some work to find out what jobs are needed, why should the government be expected to pay off the loans you racked up through your own laziness?
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Kacen
Joined: Dec 18 2007
PostPosted: Jan 25 2012 06:14 am Reply with quote Back to top

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