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Jack Slater
Title: Friendly Felon
Joined: May 17 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 706
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That's a good point, it's awesome when you can actually make a difference in your own life, victory is glorious.
That's not what happened here, though. I'm starting to think the internet is The Matrix.
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Cause that's how I roll bounce. |
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JRA
Joined: Sep 17 2007
Location: The Opium Trail
Posts: 3475
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| aika wrote: |
| Greg the White wrote: |
| a bunch of gamers just went online and threatened his wife and kids |
Yah guys, we don't need to be threatening Paul's wife. Paul apparently already has that one covered.
(Some people on the Penny Arcade forums tracked that one down.) |
Holy shit.
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 There are a lot of what if's in life Donny. What if I hit you really hard in the face, knocked yo shit to the back of yo skull? What if I....had you girl gargle my nuts? The fact remains, you are a fuckin mutant. |
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Jack Slater
Title: Friendly Felon
Joined: May 17 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 706
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Hey, if you haven't been arrested for domestic violence, well you just don't know the meaning of passion.
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Cause that's how I roll bounce. |
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3112
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aika
Title: Narcissist
Joined: Apr 25 2008
Location: On the table.
Posts: 2041
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They're saying the fireworks don't start until Dave unloads that long rant on Paul, which is crap. I would be utterly offended if any PR person told me to "put on your big boy hat" or suggested that he would take the items I had ordered and sell them on eBay. Or, even threaten to cancel my order altogether if I tried to cancel it and reorder to take advantage of a new discount being offered. I think Dave was completely justified in just finally losing his crap on this utterly unhelpful, insulting douchebag.
Gabe isn't the first person to take their exchange with Paul public. He just happens to be the most famous.
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 天上天下唯我独尊 |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24886
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1) Kotaku sucks. Fuck Kotaku.
2) Gabe publicly embarrassed an asshole because he could. Gabe did what needed to be done. Paul was a complete asshole. There's no apologist spin that justifies the way in which Paul treated this customer and Owen Good's pathetic attempt to white knight him is completely fucking appalling.
3) A member of the Kotaku staff is calling someone a bully? Ha ha, well I guess they'd know. You have to dance like a fucking organ monkey to get full posting privileges on Kotaku, and if you don't constantly follow the herd, the staff will take them away. Don't ever disagree with a Kotaku staff member on anything, or oops, your comments are no longer public.
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3112
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I just hate the quote "When these assholes threaten me or Penny Arcade I just laugh. I will personally burn everything I’ve made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."
Really? Would you take down your charity? Make everyone who works for you unemployed? That sounds like something Paul would have said, and we'd have tortured him for that one quote if he did say it. I really just despise this whole "Well, I didn't think a million nerds would have threatened one PR prick." You did. Gabe has the "internet fuckwad theory" under his belt, and knows that he has a million teenagers who he could rile up for the smallest reasons.
The root behind this isn't the controllers. He didn't convince people to put pressure on the distributor/manufacturer/marketer to practice fair business or be honest and upfront with their customers, to take action against Paul. They all just piled on one guy who represented all of the bullies, and in threatening, invading the man's privacy, they all became bullies, and felt empowered because a few thousand people were able to make one man miserable, and almost tear down a company that makes controllers for disabled people.
Paul was the biggest asshole, and his actions set things in motion. Dave could have stopped corresponding with Paul, but decided to egg him on, and contact Gabe. Gabe then went "check this out, readers, you know what to do," and everybody had to white-knight against the lvl 99 dragon in a bluetooth headset. The ends didn't justify the means, and to me, there isn't a single redeemable human being in the whole story.
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 So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind. |
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aika
Title: Narcissist
Joined: Apr 25 2008
Location: On the table.
Posts: 2041
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Greg, I wish to respectfully dissent.
On a few things you said...
| Greg the White wrote: |
| he has a million teenagers who he could rile up for the smallest reasons |
These controllers are $49.99 each. Our man Dave bought two. Tack on shipping and taxes and he spent well over $100, that he was already billed for (against policy), when the items he had ordered had not even shipped yet. I'm not sure what your situation is but $100 is a lot of money for me, and to have to taken from you without any idea when you were going to receive the items you were paying for, and having it reach two months past the time you were charged without any sign of what you paid for? That's not really the smallest thing in the world. For me, that'd be pretty big.
| Greg the White wrote: |
| Dave could have stopped corresponding with Paul |
Could he? Paul was the one to reply to his inquiries as to where his controller or money was. At this point he was essentially out over $100 with nothing to show for it. I think instead of arguing with Paul, he could have asked for contact information to someone else he could talk to about his order, but honestly I doubt Paul would have directed him to anyone else.
Could this have been handled better? Absolutely. But when frustrated, people tend to go with their gut and not necessarily make the most rational moves. Dave was pissed at the subpar, horrendous treatment he was getting, and he lashed out at Paul while passing the correspondance on to several media outlets/gaming sites in hopes of getting attention. After all, when companies get heavy bad press, they tend to bend to the customer instead of sticking to being dicks (Bank of America, Verizon, etc). Gabe saw this total blowhard bragging about being in the pockets of virtually everyone and their mother. He saw this man bragging about being at PAX, which was Gabe's own baby, and he took the opportunity to make an impact the only way he could: he told the blowhard he wouldn't be allowed at PAX, and he helped the story get more exposure.
What's happened to Paul as a result sucks. It really does. His family got threatened, which is really fucked up. His name is everywhere. His PR company got a ton of very very negative exposure. And yes, the company making the controllers got fucked over in a huge way. But don't forget the core cause of all of this. It wasn't Gabe making it public. It was Paul himself. If he had done his job professionally, reasonably, and correctly by answering the questions Dave was asking with information that was actually helpful or even coherent, literally none of this would have happened.
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Jack Slater
Title: Friendly Felon
Joined: May 17 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 706
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Bullshit. The core cause of the mass psychosis was the Penny Arcade guy, you're just deluding yourself to think otherwise. Had he not rallied his nerd horde, it would have been just another consumer complaint. The world is full of them, and nobody gives a shit. Nobody would give a shit about this one either were it not for Gabe.
I don't think ANYONE is defending the PR guy. Most of the dissent seems to be coming from my perspective, that of being sickened by the behavior of said nerd horde.
So, I respectfully dissent from your respectful dissension.
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Cause that's how I roll bounce. |
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aika
Title: Narcissist
Joined: Apr 25 2008
Location: On the table.
Posts: 2041
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| Jack Slater wrote: |
| Bullshit. The core cause of the mass psychosis was the Penny Arcade guy, you're just deluding yourself to think otherwise. Had he not rallied his nerd horde, it would have been just another consumer complaint. |
Sorry, I respectfully disagree.
If you're masturbating with a conveyor belt and it rips your testicle out and you end up in the hospital with doctors laughing at you and your face all over the news because that shit was just too rich to keep to themselves, don't blame the conveyor belt. The fault lies with you using it to wank with in the first place.
The fact remains that if Paul hadn't been a douche then there would have been nothing to report. No shitty PR. No bad customer service. No drama. Just some mild annoyance over China being slow and customs holding the controllers up.
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3112
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| aika wrote: |
| Jack Slater wrote: |
| Bullshit. The core cause of the mass psychosis was the Penny Arcade guy, you're just deluding yourself to think otherwise. Had he not rallied his nerd horde, it would have been just another consumer complaint. |
Sorry, I respectfully disagree.
If you're masturbating with a conveyor belt and it rips your testicle out and you end up in the hospital with doctors laughing at you and your face all over the news because that shit was just too rich to keep to themselves, don't blame the conveyor belt. The fault lies with you using it to wank with in the first place.
The fact remains that if Paul hadn't been a douche then there would have been nothing to report. No shitty PR. No bad customer service. No drama. Just some mild annoyance over China being slow and customs holding the controllers up. |
Nobody's saying that Paul didn't instigate it, but Dave didn't handle it well. It seemed like he started with the whole internet drama crap. There were a lot more choices than to keep bothering one guy and trying to talk about his personal life, which was well out of line. It feels like Dave didn't give a crap about his controllers after a while, and just wanted a victory. Like I said, there were three separate companies he could have contacted, and multiple people within, but he cried to the nerd warlord, who then rallied his horde.
You know how Paul could become the good guy in all of this? Post the e-mails. I bet he got at least a thousand, and how many of those do you think were intelligent, well-written reprimands of Paul's behavior? I'd wager 1 out of every 20 or 30. Maybe perhaps it's an ironic hell for Paul to be e-mailed by a thousand Pauls, but it hardly differentiates those poor, downtrodden nerds from the man they condemn in the first place.
The conversation could have easily started at "What role does marketing actually play in the consumer/producer relationship?" but instead went on to "Fuck yeah! Take that bullies!" and on to "Wow, gamers really are a bunch of sheltered shut-ins with a chip on their shoulder."
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 So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind. |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24886
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Greg, I think we're getting away from some important facts here:
1. The controllers were advertised to ship in early December.
2. The company was charging full price for the controllers BEFORE they shipped, which is completely fucking illegal.
3. When Dave, nervous that products he had ordered apparently as Christmas presents had not shipped by December 16, he inquired as to when they might ship. He was told they would ship the next day. This was a blatant lie.
4. A price drop occurred on the unreleased product and was not retroactively offered to people who had already ordered the product.
Anything that happened after this point to Paul or his employer is completely reasonable. If your product isn't going to be delivered by Christmas and you KNOW it isn't going to, you send out a professionally worded apology to your consumers letting them know there have been delays, and you put it on your website as well. And you absolutely offer the price drop to preorders, seeing as they shouldn't have been charged yet in the first place. And then that's the end of it.
And if your job is PR, then do PR. PR involves being polite to customers even if you feel they're not being polite to you. And if you can't do that, ignore it. If I send a rude e-mail to a company because I'm irritated, I don't really expect a reply. If I actually get one, and it's courteous and actually addresses my specific concerns (as opposed to be a blatant form letter), I am impressed and humbled.
I think a great example of a company that does PR well is Aksys. They are a smaller localization company with a hardcore fanbase that gives them shit over petty crap all the time. But they ALWAYS handle criticism and questions in a professional manner.
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aika
Title: Narcissist
Joined: Apr 25 2008
Location: On the table.
Posts: 2041
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Also, just an FYI sort of update: Once the other company was brought in to take Paul's place, he tried to extort them for money by refusing to hand over email and twitter accounts that belonged to Avenger unless they gave him a share of the profits from here on. As soon as the new PR company made what Paul was trying to do public, Paul backed down and agreed to start handing the accounts over.
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 天上天下唯我独尊 |
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3112
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My point about the controllers is that at some point, nobody apparently cared about them at all. Dave seemed more interested in getting into a fight. Instead of stalking the guy's Youtube motorcycle videos, maybe he could have contacted someone else in order to find out about the controllers. Maybe Gabe could used the apparent leverage he had to get a decent answer out of the guy, instead of just "This guy's not getting a table," which he knew would get a fight going. After a few e-mails, it was only about the fight. Dave and Gabe obviously felt like getting a good victory over one guy instead of helping the charity.
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 So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind. |
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Jack Slater
Title: Friendly Felon
Joined: May 17 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 706
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| Syd Lexia wrote: |
2. The company was charging full price for the controllers BEFORE they shipped, which is completely fucking illegal. |
How do you figure? If I buy something from Amazon, you better believe I have to pay in full before they ship it.
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Cause that's how I roll bounce. |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24886
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No, you don't. You give them your credit card, they prepare an invoice, and you are billed when it ships.
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Dr. Jeebus
Moderator
Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 5228
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Same goes for marketplace sellers on amazon. Even if it's not a preorder, we don't get our money until we confirm with Amazon that the item has shipped.
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dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
| UsaSatsui wrote: |
| The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus |
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Jack Slater
Title: Friendly Felon
Joined: May 17 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 706
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| Syd Lexia wrote: |
| No, you don't. You give them your credit card, they prepare an invoice, and you are billed when it ships. |
Ah, I see what you mean. Still, how is it illegal?
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Cause that's how I roll bounce. |
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Bob Dylan`s Blues
Title: Worlds Strongest Man
Joined: Jun 08 2011
Location: Your nightmares
Posts: 520
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| Greg the White wrote: |
| My point about the controllers is that at some point, nobody apparently cared about them at all. Dave seemed more interested in getting into a fight. Instead of stalking the guy's Youtube motorcycle videos, maybe he could have contacted someone else in order to find out about the controllers. Maybe Gabe could used the apparent leverage he had to get a decent answer out of the guy, instead of just "This guy's not getting a table," which he knew would get a fight going. After a few e-mails, it was only about the fight. Dave and Gabe obviously felt like getting a good victory over one guy instead of helping the charity. |
I agree that the methods used by Mike were more than I would use in a situation like this but you're making it sound like Dave should have just took Paul's shit and let him walk scott free. I would have reported Paul to whoever his superiors were but that probably would do no good. Maybe what Mike did was the only way to get things done.
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3112
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| Bob Dylan`s Blues wrote: |
| Greg the White wrote: |
| My point about the controllers is that at some point, nobody apparently cared about them at all. Dave seemed more interested in getting into a fight. Instead of stalking the guy's Youtube motorcycle videos, maybe he could have contacted someone else in order to find out about the controllers. Maybe Gabe could used the apparent leverage he had to get a decent answer out of the guy, instead of just "This guy's not getting a table," which he knew would get a fight going. After a few e-mails, it was only about the fight. Dave and Gabe obviously felt like getting a good victory over one guy instead of helping the charity. |
I agree that the methods used by Mike were more than I would use in a situation like this but you're making it sound like Dave should have just took Paul's shit and let him walk scott free. I would have reported Paul to whoever his superiors were but that probably would do no good. Maybe what Mike did was the only way to get things done. |
I've said that multiple times. Dave was more worried about winning an argument than reporting the guy or trying to contact someone who wasn't a total jackass.
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 So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind. |
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Bob Dylan`s Blues
Title: Worlds Strongest Man
Joined: Jun 08 2011
Location: Your nightmares
Posts: 520
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| Greg the White wrote: |
| Bob Dylan`s Blues wrote: |
| Greg the White wrote: |
| My point about the controllers is that at some point, nobody apparently cared about them at all. Dave seemed more interested in getting into a fight. Instead of stalking the guy's Youtube motorcycle videos, maybe he could have contacted someone else in order to find out about the controllers. Maybe Gabe could used the apparent leverage he had to get a decent answer out of the guy, instead of just "This guy's not getting a table," which he knew would get a fight going. After a few e-mails, it was only about the fight. Dave and Gabe obviously felt like getting a good victory over one guy instead of helping the charity. |
I agree that the methods used by Mike were more than I would use in a situation like this but you're making it sound like Dave should have just took Paul's shit and let him walk scott free. I would have reported Paul to whoever his superiors were but that probably would do no good. Maybe what Mike did was the only way to get things. |
I've said that multiple times. Dave was more worried about winning an argument than reporting the guy or trying to contact someone who wasn't a total jackass. |
Apparently people associated with the company had warned the top guys that something like this would happen. They knew what Paul was like. They did nothing about it. Like I said: maybe what Mike did was the only way to get things done.
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Dr. Jeebus
Moderator
Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 5228
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| Greg the White wrote: |
| Bob Dylan`s Blues wrote: |
| Greg the White wrote: |
| My point about the controllers is that at some point, nobody apparently cared about them at all. Dave seemed more interested in getting into a fight. Instead of stalking the guy's Youtube motorcycle videos, maybe he could have contacted someone else in order to find out about the controllers. Maybe Gabe could used the apparent leverage he had to get a decent answer out of the guy, instead of just "This guy's not getting a table," which he knew would get a fight going. After a few e-mails, it was only about the fight. Dave and Gabe obviously felt like getting a good victory over one guy instead of helping the charity. |
I agree that the methods used by Mike were more than I would use in a situation like this but you're making it sound like Dave should have just took Paul's shit and let him walk scott free. I would have reported Paul to whoever his superiors were but that probably would do no good. Maybe what Mike did was the only way to get things done. |
I've said that multiple times. Dave was more worried about winning an argument than reporting the guy or trying to contact someone who wasn't a total jackass. |
You're operating under the assumption that Dave had any means of contacting his superiors. Everything I've seen about this company said that they were always unprofessional, not just this incident, so I doubt any contact information for specific persons was readily available (or even available with a decent amount of scouring). And it may never have even occurred to him to try to reach someone else. He probably used a generic "contact us" e-mail address, and this was what he got. He had no reason to think it was possible to reach anyone but Paul through that address. I don't know why you feel the need to be such a fucking apologist, and I am of the belief that the customer is almost always wrong, but this behaviour was completely inexcusable and anything that happens to Paul up to and including prison sodomy is justified.
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dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
| UsaSatsui wrote: |
| The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24886
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What's wrong with winning the argument, any way?
Once it became apparent that he didn't have any chance of obtaining his items by Christmas, what course of action was left to him? And who even says it was about winning an argument? When you are treated poorly by a retailer, isn't it generally customary to warn others that said retailer is not reliable or worthy of their hard-earned money? Isn't that what Dave did?
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username
Title: owner of a lonely heart
Joined: Jul 06 2007
Location: phoenix, az usa
Posts: 16135
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looking at the email exchange, paul drew first blood, so to speak, by calling dave out and telling him to man up and put his big boy hat on. so, yeah, i think a retaliation was in order.
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| Klimbatize wrote: |
| I'll eat a turkey sandwich while blowing my load |
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
Posts: 7565
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| Syd Lexia wrote: |
| 2. The company was charging full price for the controllers BEFORE they shipped, which is completely fucking illegal. |
No. That's standard practice for special orders. It's how the company makes sure they're not wasting their time on something you order, then when they call you 2 weeks later, you say "I changed my mind." It's only illegal if they have no intention of getting the item.
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