If anyone here hasn't heard these guys, you really should check them out. Pretty much every aspect of their music is totally unique, and compositionally they're one one of the most well developed bands in metal.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

All the songs are similar in structure.

Just to make sure we're on the same page here, describe Blind Guardian's typical song structure.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

Intro, verse, prechorus, chorus, bridge, verse, prechorus, chorus, bridge, solo etc...

Take a second listen bro. BG's songs are structured nothing like that.

Most of Blind Guardian's vocal melodies are in a style called "recitativo accompagnato" (well, as close as can be done in a metal band anyways), which means that they are fluid and speech-like (as opposed to being strict question-answer binary form which is essentially obiquitous in any sort of rock music). The result is that the listener almost never hears the same thing twice except for the chorus. In the first song I posted, there are ten different distinct vocal sections (and I'm even being conservative and not counting sections that are clearly based on similar themes, even if those themes are developed differently).

When you take into accoount the fact that these guys actually modulate, use theme development, actual counterpoint (like, actual counterpoint), and actual voice leading (like, actual voice leading), they really are one of the more compositionally advanced bands you will find.

If odd time was the trait that defined well-written music, then yes, Meshuggah would be up there, but based on all the songs that I've analyzed (which is only a few), it's all just basic powerchords with no phrasing, no directional harmonic structure whose range is less than an octave. Some songs (like from the Nothing album) are just one riff that repeats an ungodly amount of times, only to change rhythm slightly and repeat another ungodly amount of times. Yeah they were original for sure, but I don't see how anything that repetative and skeletal can be considered "compositionally accomplished."

Let me put it this way: I know tons of musicians who don't know any theory at all, but can write exactly like Meshuggah, but everyone I know who tries to write like Blind Guardian has at least a couple years of theory study at college.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

What you say is true, about the fact that the verses sound different, so you get a unique experience with each verse, but it still doesn't make me incorrect in saying that they follow the aforementioned structure.

It does, actually. In Blind Guardian there is no set "verse," "pre-chorus," or any other section intended to give the listener an exact idea of where they are in the song(other than the chorus, but one consistent section does not constitute run-of-the-mill-ness), and therefore every song has a unique structure. You cannot say "every song goes verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge" if there is no verse or bridge.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

I agree that Meshuggah can get redundant, but their polyrythms are insanely complicated, and intentional, and where i disagree is your statement that they have no directional harmonic structure.

Well show me your analysis of the harmonic structure of any Meshuggah song. By my analysis, their music is not even tonal, let alone having any sort of harmonic direction.

And about the polyrhythms, that's where I give credit for originality, but like anything else (like sweep-picking and legatto), the better you understand it, the more you realize that it's not all that involved. I think a friend of mine from a Meshuggah-worship band said it best: "None of us know anything about music, but we know how to count, so we can play Meshuggah style."

Burt Reynolds wrote:

Also, since when did originality not factor in to compositional mastery... I would say it's one of the more important elements. Look, I like Mozart more than I like Mahler,

Well, first, I'm not really sure I understand why you said that originality is one of the most important elements in music, then said you prefer Mozart to Mahler... I think you may have just disproven your point!

Second, you're comparing two composers who lived hundreds of years apart under dramatically different social settings (bear in mind that right after Mozart's death, Beethoven's first symphony - the wussiest and most Haydn-worshipping of his nine - was described as "barbaric" when it was first debuted because it began on the tritone of a dominant chord. What on EARTH would those same people have said about Mahler?!) You cannot make that kind of comparison to two bands who have reasonably similar influences (in the grand "Mozart and Mahler" scheme of things) and began their careers maybe ten years apart.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

when i was a kid, I played a lot of piano pieces that were of the classical era, and powermetal is similar in the fact that it is very structured, so it seems less impressive to me than a musician capable of making music with a lot of polyrythms and less structure to build from.

Well here we get to the crux of the point I'm trying to make, ant least where comparisons to Meshuggah are concerned: there is a difference between less structure and no structure. Fundamentally it doesn't take any thought or learnedness to put together a song out of quasi-tonal phrases with no harmonic pull. If that were the case, every moronic death metal retard in my town with a half-assed band would be a genius. It DOES however take thought and learnedness to disregard the structural conventions of one's genre and - through strong harmonic scheme and appropriate theme development rather than spoonfeeding the listener verses and choruses - create songs that are shapely and cohesive.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

EDIT: keep in mind, I respect your opinion, and I'm not flaming, but I do enjoy these sorts of discussions, and I didn't want to come off as sounding like I was insulting you for liking them.

Of course!

FNJ wrote:

they did a fucking album about lord of the rings. how is that not awesome?

No no, The Silmarillion. Even awesomer!


As for recommendations, I would say that if you're starting out go with Nightfall in Middle Earth, Imaginations From the Other Side or Somewhere Far Beyond. The further back you go in their discography, the more raw and thrash influenced it gets, so keep that in mind whatever you do.

That's not even their best thrash album, imo. Check out Follow the Blind, it's sick

I've gone to college for traditional theory, jazz theory, music history, classical guitar, studied counterpoint on my own, and I listen to buttloads of classical music.

The thing is that knowing theory won't really help unless you listen to a lot of classical music, because for the most part, that's the only kind of music in which most of the ideas in music theory are applied. Without it, all music theory is just an abstractions, like algebra or something.