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Slayer1
Title: ,,!,, for you know who
Joined: Sep 23 2008
Posts: 4274
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I'm suddenly reminded of Caligula's Horse
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
Posts: 2515
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HAHAHAHAHAHA
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15543305
| Quote: |
Occupy Belfast protest has 'no negative impact': Dean
The Occupy Belfast protest in Writer's Square The Occupy Belfast protest in Writer's Square
Continue reading the main story
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The Dean of St Anne's Cathedral has said an anti-capitalist protest outside the building is not having a "negative impact" on its work.
Reverend Canon John Mann said he was in regular contact with the Occupy Belfast protesters.
They have set up a camp opposite the cathedral on Writer's Square.
His comments follow the resignation of two senior clergymen from St Paul's Cathedral in London, following a larger protest outside its doors.
The Dean of St Paul's, the Right Reverend Graeme Knowles, stepped down on Monday and a part time chaplain, Rev Fraser Dyer, has also resigned.
It followed weeks of demonstrations outside the cathedral by Occupy London Stock Exchange protesters, which led to the building being closed for several days.
'Worldwide movement'
However, Rev Mann said the same issues did not exist in Belfast.
"The people have been over and spoken to us and we have been over and spoken to them. We have shared things that they needed to borrow," said Rev Mann.
"I haven't felt any negative impact."
One of the protesters, Ryan, said the demonstration had "nothing to do with St Anne's" or with "the church".
"It isn't just to do with Belfast or London. This is a worldwide movement," he added.
"We are here because of the logistics of it.
"Outside the stock exchange or Invest NI for example we just have solid ground. Here we have grass and room for expansion.
"We are on public property." |
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Etch
Title: Intermittent Scribbler
Joined: Mar 15 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 588
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 It is a waste of politeness to be courteous to the devil ~ William L. Garrison
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
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Heh, saw that when it aired. Emailed it to a bunch of friends.
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Dorkus
Joined: Jul 19 2009
Location: England
Posts: 91
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Things like this make me glad I live in a small British countryside area that nobody cares enough to occupy.
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Hacker
Banned
Joined: Sep 13 2008
Posts: 3129
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There are some changes that need to happen, like a more even distribution of money.
Also, I don't know what I think about the gold standard. On one hand the fiat system has been going for a long time and I don't know how much gold we have as a country to back the money. But on the other money does suck right now
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@om*d
Title: Dorakyura
Joined: Jul 10 2010
Location: Castlevania
Posts: 4226
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I think some extraterrestrials need to come to Earth and start their own occupy movement. Until all humans are dead.
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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| Hacker wrote: |
| There are some changes that need to happen, like a more even distribution of money. |
Fucking communist.
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3112
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| Syd Lexia wrote: |
| Hacker wrote: |
| There are some changes that need to happen, like a more even distribution of money. |
Fucking communist. |
Fucking capitalist.
Honestly, it's weird growing up in a society where a communist is a traitor, and a capitalist a patriot, while there are countries where it's the polar opposite. Politics is weird shit.
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So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind. |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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Well, let me say this. This is a true story. In 7th and 8th grade, I was a huge fan of Communism. A societal system where I could have little to no work ethic or ambition and still live as comfortably as a doctor or lawyer? Yeah, I definitely wanted to sign up for that. It seemed like the best idea in the world.
And you know, I can pinpoint the exact moment when I stopped supporting Communism.
When I got my first paycheck.
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Hacker
Banned
Joined: Sep 13 2008
Posts: 3129
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| Syd Lexia wrote: |
Well, let me say this. This is a true story. In 7th and 8th grade, I was a huge fan of Communism. A societal system where I could have little to no work ethic or ambition and still live as comfortably as a doctor or lawyer? Yeah, I definitely wanted to sign up for that. It seemed like the best idea in the world.
And you know, I can pinpoint the exact moment when I stopped supporting Communism.
When I got my first paycheck. |
Lol
I kind of want to sig those last two lines
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Vaenamoenen
Joined: Mar 18 2010
Location: Tuonela
Posts: 299
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| Syd Lexia wrote: |
| Well, let me say this. This is a true story. In 7th and 8th grade, I was a huge fan of Communism. A societal system where I could have little to no work ethic or ambition and still live as comfortably as a doctor or lawyer? Yeah, I definitely wanted to sign up for that. |
Having discussion with extremes only is bullshit.
I've never been a fan communism. Elimination of private property in a big scale is ridiculous. Even more so, if it is done by force. The 20th century communism was the biggest fail in human history.
That doesn't change the fact, that you guys (like many European countries) have too many poor people, which you can't account for by saying "Oh they're just not working or trying hard enough." Hence, there must be a systemic flaw.
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Klimbatize
2010 NES Champ
Title: 2011 Picnic/Death Champ
Joined: Mar 15 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 5000
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If we all work hard enough we can all be in the top 1%.
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Vaenamoenen
Joined: Mar 18 2010
Location: Tuonela
Posts: 299
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| Klimbatize wrote: |
| If we all work hard enough we can all be in the top 1%. |
I agree!
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GPFontaine
Joined: Dec 06 2007
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 11244
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| Vaenamoenen wrote: |
| Klimbatize wrote: |
| If we all work hard enough we can all be in the top 1%. |
I agree! |
If I order a slice of pie in that reality would I be served an entire pie?
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Vaenamoenen
Joined: Mar 18 2010
Location: Tuonela
Posts: 299
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| GPFontaine wrote: |
| If I order a slice of pie in that reality would I be served an entire pie? |
Probably not. I was simply referring to a need of collective effort.
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
Posts: 2515
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I spoke about this on IRC before, it's a noble effort but i doubt anything will come of it.
They're points are entirely valid. Why do people sit back and let the banks shit all over everything, they fucked up and us normal folk bear the burden.
As a serious question... never mind the distribution of money, why do you even need money?
Why should you even need to pay for the things?
There is no reason for money, people regard it as the be all and end all. Money after all is just a concept and it doesn't even need to exist.
Via Marx anyway Capitalism is eventually going to shit itself and will give away to socialism and finally communism. I'm not saying communism is perfect because in reality it can never work as a whole however there are parts of it which can function independently.
How can anyone ever say they don't support equality, you literally can't be a human being if you enjoy shitting over other people and fucking up their lives.
...and who said the demolition of the private sector was bad...sure it provides jobs but under marxism people wouldn't seek them out because they wouldn't get paid money.
Private sector acts solely in the interest of money and if you think otherwise you are misinformed. It does not give a shit about your life, or what it destroys to get money.
I'll bring my degree briefly into this. You may or may not know that i am studying as a planner. The fundamental/basic role of a planner is to act in the public interest. So when i finish my MSc i can go and work in the public or private sector.
The private sector is the big bucks and let me tell you right now what my job involves. It involves basically becoming a slave to a major corporation, let's pick a US example, i get hired by Walmart or some big chain store to locate their stores. Sure it's gonna destroy other peoples businesses, sure it's gonna divert trade but in my role i can't have an opinion all they are interested in is making money... now this is private sector... look for a second at what i described the role of the planner is... how does the private sector act in anyway for the public interest, it doesn't. I don't know how i could sleep at night knowing that i am destroying peoples lives just to earn lots of money, i am approving large shopping centres that will cause businesses to go bankrupt or for people to lose their jobs, it's morally unjust and may i point out that this only occurs in the UK.
See in the US... guess what? See if you come to me and ask for permission for a large shopping centre, i don't have to do retail impact assessment so basically I DON'T HAVE TO GIVE A SHIT ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE AND THEIR BUSINESSES. At least in the UK even though as a private consultant i have to pretty much strive to get it approved, a RIA still has to get done. In the USA it's a big fuck you, we will pave over everything and drop stores in anywhere without even considering the impact.
It's absolutely ridiculous and this is why i think that private sector sucks.
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
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 Oh man, this is hilarious. If you are going to criticize capitalism, the most efficient way of distributing resources, don't try to use stoner logic.
| Alowishus wrote: |
| why do you even need money? |
Because the barter system is highly inefficient and ineffective.
| Alowishus wrote: |
| Why should you even need to pay for the things?...There is no reason for money |
Um, because people need to be compensated for their work. Otherwise, no one has any reason or motivation to work, and everyone would end up doing nothing all day - just staring at the glowing rectangles of television, computers, & phones. This isn't the world of Star Trek where someone will just work for the betterment of society. They need some sort of incentive to get off their ass and contribute to civilization.
| Alowishus wrote: |
| Via Marx anyway Capitalism is eventually going to shit itself and will give away to socialism and finally communism. |
Wow, just wow. Still believing Marx's laughable prediction invalidates your entire opinion. He has already been proven wrong by the Soviet Union. Communism simply does not understand human behavior like capitalism & the invisible hand do. The social democracies of Europe are learning right now that the problem with socialism (and communism) is that you eventually run out of other people's money to redistribute. This is a lesson the US will soon learn as our public sector continues to grow during our current administration, to the detriment of the private sector & our national economy.
Thanks for the laugh, though.
As for the private sector, their growth is what makes an economy strong. Being in Ireland, you should know that. That's how the Celtic Tiger of the 90s was so powerful. Public sector growth is full of ridiculous amounts of waste & bureaucratic corruption. The recent US stimuluses ended up spending about $250K/job. It would have been more cost effective to simply give people $50K to live on for a year. I'll take the private sector, which will actually get something done well & done quickly, because if it doesn't they don't get paid, compared to the public sector that is hooked up to the government's teet, allowing them to do poor jobs that take forever to get done.
Your criticism of the private sector is basically a criticism of corporations in general. Hate for corporations I simply do not understand. Of course, profit is a goal, but while they do that, they provide a valuable good or service to the community. We enjoy these products on a daily basis. It makes things like eating lunch so simple when it was a struggle a mere few centuries ago. Meanwhile, they are simply groups of people acting in concert to contribute to society while making a profit along the way - which has the added benefit of giving jobs to everyone so they can pay their mortgage or rent. If you hate corporations, you hate people in general, because that's what corporations are, groups of people. If you hate places like Walmart, vote with your wallet and don't give them your money. If enough people agree with you, they'll go out of business.
The profit motive is incredibly effective; unfortunately, it is absent in the public sector, leading to waste, deadlines missed, and inferior products. Capitalism's occasional excesses are a small price to pay for getting a job done and getting it done well.
...So, have you guys missed me and my posts like this? 
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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I've missed you, Cattivo.
Also, I found the whole "We Are The 99%" thing disturbing.
Ever since I can remember, I've been taught that it is wrong to persecute minorities, and that is society's job to prevent such persecution. And I truly believe this. It doesn't matter if that minority is African Americans, gays, or the wealthy.
Imagine for a moment these "Occupy" people were protesting ANY OTHER LEGAL MINORITY. You'd write them off as fringe lunatics. You must do the same with these people.
America is not and has never been about rule by majority. If it was, we'd live in a much different and much worse society than we do now. Segregation would still be alive and well in many states, and police would be able to drag you out of your home in the middle of the night for having anal sex.
Also, as South Park hit upon, there is no 99%. There is single-minded super majority of Americans who have united for a forcible redistribution of wealth, and there never will be. And I take great exception when others suppose that I give them permission to speak for me when I have not. These unwashed morons do not represent my interests, and I wish they would stop pretending to do so. It's a shame that our slander/libel laws are more liberal than England's, or I would file a class action lawsuit against them.
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Vaenamoenen
Joined: Mar 18 2010
Location: Tuonela
Posts: 299
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| Cattivo wrote: |
| The social democracies of Europe are learning right now that the problem with socialism (and communism) is that you eventually run out of other people's money to redistribute. |
To what are you referring to?
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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The economic crisis in Greece, I imagine. And the bailouts. Market analysts are predicting the Euro will fold and countries will go back to their own national currencies.
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
Posts: 2515
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| Cattivo wrote: |
...So, have you guys missed me and my posts like this? |
Wow who is this total douchebag? Though i will have to congratulate you because you took my opinion and responded in the form of a personal attack, congratulations retard.
| Cattivo wrote: |
Oh man, this is hilarious. If you are going to criticize capitalism, the most efficient way of distributing resources, don't try to use stoner logic.
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Implying i used stoner logic...
| Cattivo wrote: |
| Alowishus wrote: |
| why do you even need money? |
Because the barter system is highly inefficient and ineffective. |
Who says you have to use a barter system....
| Cattivo wrote: |
| Alowishus wrote: |
| Why should you even need to pay for the things?...There is no reason for money |
Um, because people need to be compensated for their work. Otherwise, no one has any reason or motivation to work, and everyone would end up doing nothing all day - just staring at the glowing rectangles of television, computers, & phones. This isn't the world of Star Trek where someone will just work for the betterment of society. They need some sort of incentive to get off their ass and contribute to civilization.
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Firstly ever heard of volunteer work... perhaps that is a foreign concept for you, lots of people e.g. in planning field volunteer work to HELP PEOPLE. Ever heard of working to better mankind... i guess you haven't. Ever heard of the ration system? A system similar to that would work a lot better, were everyone receives the same and you can use coupons or whatever how you wish...I guess you are one of these people who chose to get involved with a job just to earn lots of money as supposed to be actually interested in doing it..
| Cattivo wrote: |
| Alowishus wrote: |
| Via Marx anyway Capitalism is eventually going to shit itself and will give away to socialism and finally communism. |
Wow, just wow. Still believing Marx's laughable prediction invalidates your entire opinion. He has already been proven wrong by the Soviet Union. Communism simply does not understand human behavior like capitalism & the invisible hand do. The social democracies of Europe are learning right now that the problem with socialism (and communism) is that you eventually run out of other people's money to redistribute. This is a lesson the US will soon learn as our public sector continues to grow during our current administration, to the detriment of the private sector & our national economy.
Thanks for the laugh, though.
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1. Fuck you. 2. If you actually read my OPINION you would see that i said Communism doesn't work in practice...so how exactly is my argument invalidated were i didn't provide one.
"Communism doesn't understand human behaviour" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah so i guess that's why in academia it was called upon to help solve problems in society... geography, planning etc. social/HUMAN SCIENCES. It was introduced as a point of view in the 60s to support theory were quantitative studies (which DIDN'T solve human problems) were tossed aside as they DIDN'T solve social problems like marxist analysis.
| Cattivo wrote: |
As for the private sector, their growth is what makes an economy strong. Being in Ireland, you should know that. That's how the Celtic Tiger of the 90s was so powerful. Public sector growth is full of ridiculous amounts of waste & bureaucratic corruption. The recent US stimuluses ended up spending about $250K/job. It would have been more cost effective to simply give people $50K to live on for a year. I'll take the private sector, which will actually get something done well & done quickly, because if it doesn't they don't get paid, compared to the public sector that is hooked up to the government's teet, allowing them to do poor jobs that take forever to get done.
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You know the core argument here is regarding the 99% thing....
"Ireland's wealth is not evenly distributed. The United Nations reported in 2004 that Ireland was second only to the United States in inequality among Western nations."
I won't refute that the private sector doesn't have pros. It has a serious amount of cons that i disagree with. Look at Britains New Right with Thatcher. Yes it was fair enough what she did to get Britain out of recession and lack of jobs in the 1980s. I can't disagree with the fact she was acting in the countries best interests.
Right wing governments at least i've seen in the UK are only concerned with attracting private investment and i strongly disagree with that. Especially into the 21st century were it attracted investment at the expensive of people.
Unlike you i'm not going to trash your opinions but you clearly value economics over morals and that is the difference between you and I. You clearly think i am a die hard communist, like i said in my original post i agree with some aspects of it.
| Quote: |
Your criticism of the private sector is basically a criticism of corporations in general. Hate for corporations I simply do not understand. Of course, profit is a goal, but while they do that, they provide a valuable good or service to the community. We enjoy these products on a daily basis. It makes things like eating lunch so simple when it was a struggle a mere few centuries ago. Meanwhile, they are simply groups of people acting in concert to contribute to society while making a profit along the way - which has the added benefit of giving jobs to everyone so they can pay their mortgage or rent. If you hate corporations, you hate people in general, because that's what corporations are, groups of people. If you hate places like Walmart, vote with your wallet and don't give them your money. If enough people agree with you, they'll go out of business.
The profit motive is incredibly effective; unfortunately, it is absent in the public sector, leading to waste, deadlines missed, and inferior products. Capitalism's occasional excesses are a small price to pay for getting a job done and getting it done well. |
....i never said i hated corporations. I hate corporations taking over at the expense of other people. It would be idiotic of me to say that corporations shouldn't be allowed to exist or earn money, then there would be no point to their existence. You also left out the WHOLE public sector which has corporations and i don't have a problem with.
Think what you want though, it doesn't bother me, i didn't feel the need to come into this thread and expect the red carpet to be rolled out because "i'm back and think i am so great".
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3112
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You could also argue that socialism has helped, in that the Obama administration's bank bailout actually saw a profit return, and the Detroit bailouts turned companies away from collapse and saved a ton of jobs in a city that's constantly on the verge of collapsing economically.
I just get angry when I see politicians saying that only lazy people don't have jobs, and that people aren't making money because they're not working hard enough. It's definitely not because we're scared that our jobs will get sent to another country, or that many people are forced to work 60 hour manual labor jobs with no overtime pay. I can really only use the whole 99% thing in an argument that while the world is in economic woe, why do we have super-billionaires whining about their companies floundering and asking for bailouts, meanwhile paying millions in bonuses and severance packages to the executives that destroyed those businesses in the first place.
I don't think it's the distribution of wealth that's the problem, it's the distribution of power and what it has wrought. Through a little bit of effort by a small amount of people in banks stuffing billions upon billions into what amounts to legalized gambling, then using underhanded Wall Street tactics, the world's economy was thrown into collapse. Now the people who did it are either not being investigated, or are being appointed to government adviser positions.
I'm all good for capitalism. Businesses provide jobs and goods to make our lives more convenient, but there are many people out there who would spread misery to make a buck, and it's the job of the government to make sure individuals are not being preyed upon. It's what got rid of child labor, kept businesses from hiring "detectives" to murder union sympathizers, establishment of minimum wage, busted massive control-hungry monopolies, instituted benefit programs like Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIPS to help people afford basic medical care, and other reforms that keep us from going back to some Gilded Age hellhole that was great times for a few, but an oppressive struggle for most.
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So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind. |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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I think corporations do need to be held accountable for their actions more than they are. The fact that Exxon-Mobil was found guilty of price fixing and the fines and punitive damages BARELY cut into their profits is certainly cause for concern.
But I don't think capitalism or corporations are in and of themselves a problem. It's just, no one can go completely unchecked. A free market should not be heavily regulated, but it should be regulated reasonably and regulated with a healthy degree of common sense.
Also, has anyone noticed that "wealthiest" rhetoric has gotten drastically more alarmist over the last 10 years? It used to be the wealthiest 10% that we were supposed to hate. Then it was 5%, now it's 1%. I guess 1% is just a way scarier number. Give them another year and they'll change it to 0.5%.
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Vaenamoenen
Joined: Mar 18 2010
Location: Tuonela
Posts: 299
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| Syd Lexia wrote: |
| The economic crisis in Greece, I imagine. And the bailouts. s. |
Yes, but where's the alleged socialism and its flaws we are now learning about?
| Quote: |
| Market analysts are predicting the Euro will fold and countries will go back to their own national currencies. |
Some countries probably will. Greece maybe should.
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