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Posted: Nov 24 2010 08:07 pm

Obviously this is the newspaper having fun due to the Yankees giving Jeter some shit. Can you believe that they would do this to Jeter? I can't. He is the face of the franchise for what, 15 years? I understand both sides of the argument, but it's Jeter, if your going to bend and overpay for someone, it has to be him.

I actually would be fine with the Sox getting him. If I were them, I'd put it into serious consideration. He can play short for a year or two, move to first or DH after that while throwing one giant FUCK YOU at the Yankees.

Posted: Nov 24 2010 08:09 pm

Remember when that dick Johnny Damon could have come back to the Red Sox, but he didn't? Because he's a dick? Fuck Johnny Damon so hard. I hope he has a career-ending injury.

Posted: Nov 24 2010 08:17 pm

$15 million a year for 3 years IS bending over and overpaying for someone. Jeter has become a .270 hitter with zero power, little-to-no power and is mediocre defensively. The Golden Glove he got this year is one of the biggest jokes ever. He ranked in bottom half among shortstops in defense this year. He brings nothing to the table. He isn't flashy, he doesn't bring people into the Stadium with big home runs, amazing speed, or flashy defense.

On the market right now he's probably worth $6-8 million, so I think the Yankees offer is far more generous than it needs to be. Jeter will get no offers anywhere near $15 mil per.

And yeah, the Yankees spend a ton of money, but they're still a business so even they have to make decisions based on money. They can afford to overspend a little, as evidenced by their overpriced offer to him already, but Jeter is fucking nuts if he think he's getting $20 million a year again. He's getting old and his numbers blow.

Posted: Nov 24 2010 08:22 pm

Jeter can get money. There are teams like Florida and Tampa Bay that are willing to overpay for guys to put themselves in playoff contention, and franchises that are so lacking in star power that they'll shell out to get established talent and hopefully draw people to the park.

Posted: Nov 24 2010 08:59 pm

You are judging his whole body of work by one season, no one has ever had a down year before? Baseball is chalk full of intangibles such as locker room presence, team leadership and even handling the press. Not to mention being the face of the franchise. Jeter is all of these...yes, his fielding is widely overrated, but he is a career .300 hitter, seems to be a great teammate, has a winners attitude.

Is it realistic that he leaves New York? Not really, but he could get a fair deal somewhere else. I'd give him 72 for 4 in a heartbeat, Boston really needs a star player, New England is really starting to lose interest in the sox for the first time in a while, they need a big boost. And by big boost I don't mean letting V-Mart leave while watching him take a VERY reasonable offer from someone else. Oh wait, Sox ownership is too busy with the soccer team they just bought, nevermind.

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Nov 24 2010 09:43 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

Jeter can get money. There are teams like Florida and Tampa Bay that are willing to overpay for guys to put themselves in playoff contention.

This the same Florida that routinely lets people go and I think actually has a total payroll of less than 45 million? The one that is in a little shit for not spending money for players? I don't think they'd pay up.

Tampa Bay will pay, though, absolutely, and so would Toronto or the Mets.

Quote:

Boston really needs a star player, New England is really starting to lose interest in the sox for the first time in a while, they need a big boost.

I disagree. Also, David Ortiz.

Quote:

Not to mention being the face of the franchise.

This is why I don't think he'll get better money anywhere else. He's the face of -a- franchise...the Yankees. He's not the face of the Red Sox, or the Blue Jays, or the Giants, or the Royals, and won't be if he goes there. The Yankees are giving him more money than he deserves, and it's really mostly a "Thanks for being there for us!" offer. Remember, he is at the tail end of his career and maybe has one more stellar season ahead of him before he becomes a solid average player for a few years, then tails off into veteranhood. I wouldn't pay through the nose for him, particularly not if I were the Red Sox and it would mostly just be a Fuck You.

Posted: Nov 24 2010 09:51 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

Jeter can get money. There are teams like Florida and Tampa Bay that are willing to overpay for guys to put themselves in playoff contention

Satsui already touched on it, but....huh? Florida dismantles itself every few years, even after winning the World Series. Their attendance blows and they have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball. Likewise, the Rays would rather spend money on retaining some of the star players they are going to lose in the near future, such as Price, Longoria, and Soriano.

Rydog wrote:

I'd give him 72 for 4 in a heartbeat

I'm glad you are not the GM of the Sox. $45 million over 3 years is by far the best deal he will be offered. Mark my words. Baseball contracts are getting a little smaller recently, and nobody is going to pay a 36 year old shortstop with diminished defensive skills anything near $15 million a year. I'm not judging Jeter on his entire career...I'm basing him on every other baseball player who hits this age and has a bad year. The fall is fast and hard. A baseball organization would be dumb to pay him for his past performance rather than on what he can do in the future. He's not some hotshot 24 year old with potential.

The Yankees owe him nothing, even if he is the 'face of the Yankees'. He's been overpaid for quite a while, so this latest offer is not an insult.

The Yankees are smart. They made that offer for a reason. Jeter will test the market, get nothing back, and then maybe they'll give him like $48 million over 3 years. Again, they'll still be overpaying, but at least both sides can save face.

Zero chance he ever plays for Boston. The fans would go apeshit...in a bad way.

Joined: Dec 06 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 11244

He fills the stands win or lose. He is a baseball hero in NY. If he gets traded it is bad for NY, it is bad for him, and it is bad for baseball.

Also F Damon.

Posted: Nov 24 2010 10:22 pm

Winning fills the stands in NY. When they lose, fans stop coming. Jeter doesn't make as much of an impact at the ticket counter as he would like to believe.

Also, it wouldn't be a trade. He's a free agent. He doesn't like the Yankees first offer, so they told him to test the market. They know they offered him a deal above market value. .270, 10 HR, 67 RBI in a contract year? Those are big indicators as to what to expect. Personally, I hope the Yankees do resign him for a ton of money. They'd be wasting more money on old players on a time when they'll be in a bidding war for a player that's actually worth the cash--Cliff Lee. Plus, it would mean they wouldn't be in the market for Hanley Ramirez when he's available soon.

And I don't agree that it would be bad for baseball. Why would it be?

Posted: Nov 24 2010 11:05 pm

Fugh, I'm not multiquoting:

The Red Sox need a new star bat (Jeter wouldn't be this), we need a batter that when they come up, you don't get up no matter what. Example: Manny, Papi until the past two years. I like keeping Ortiz, he fills the DH nicely and I really think he can whack 25-30 and knock in a 100. But these are his best possible numbers and we spend all year bracing hoping that he can pull it off. At this point, they should just tell him not to show up until May as he can hit shit in April for some reason.

Yeah, both Florida teams mentioned would be hard pressed to pull off large contracts until they got new stadiums (Florida), and for the Rays...actually, I don't know what the Rays could do, they are kind of fucked in Tampa as far as raising more funds.

Jeter won't go somewhere else, he'll play out with the Yanks and be one of their top 5 greatest ever and be a friggin warlord of New York until he dies.

And yeah, I'd go 72 and 4, for one reason...THE RED SOX HAVE THE FUCKING MONEY AND I'M SO SICK OF WATCHING THEM DO BUSINESS LIKE THE OAKLAND A'S. I never said that it was the proper value for Jeter. It's such bullshit that they won't extend an offer to ANYONE worth a damn that is actually going to make them an acquisition. For example Teixeira, we lost him for a few million a year, screw that, pay him. V-Mart, we lost him because we wouldn't pay him one more season, fuck that, pay him.

I fully understand that some teams can't operate this way, but we can and we should, considering the cost to step foot into Fenway.

And Hanley is signed through 2014, fyi.

Posted: Nov 25 2010 01:45 am

Rydog wrote:

And yeah, I'd go 72 and 4, for one reason...THE RED SOX HAVE THE FUCKING MONEY AND I'M SO SICK OF WATCHING THEM DO BUSINESS LIKE THE OAKLAND A'S.

Huh? What are you talking about? The Red Sox spend more money on payroll than any other team except for the Yankees. They've been second in overall payroll all but one year since 2004.

Boston's payroll at the end of every year, second only to the Yankees':

2010- $160 million (Yanks-$206 million)
2009- $140 million (Yanks-$220 million) Boston trailed the Mets by less than $2 million dollars for 2nd place.
2008- $147 million (Yanks-$222 million)
2007- $155 million (Yanks-$218 million)
2006- $137 million (Yanks-$207 million)
2005- $116 million (Yanks-$207 milllion)
2004- $130 million (Yanks-$187 million)

They are not cheap, by any means. The Red Sox did not win two World Series recently by just throwing money around because they could, either. I don't want them to just start throwing money around, either. They did it with JD Drew in a deal that everyone thought was fucking retarded (5 years/70 million, I believe) just because they could and it's been a horrible contract. But they do have to consider the luxury tax, and can't blow past that every single year. They don't have as much money as the Yankees. And don't compare them to any other team, like the A's...they far outspend them by two or three times their payroll.

Also, Fenway costs so much because it sells out every game. It's the smallest stadium in the league, and they are one of the most popular teams. Supply and demand dictates those high prices. As long as people keep paying them, they'll keep charging. It's also the main reason the Red Sox can have the second highest payroll every year. You can call them a lot of things, but "cheap" isn't one of them.

Posted: Nov 25 2010 02:44 am

No, they aren't cheap by payroll standards. But they won't extend that extra year or the extra 2mil per year to nab the cream of the crop, instead of Teixeira for 120/6, they get Drew for 75/5... Instead of CC for 140/7, they get Lackey for 80/5...instead of Hunter for 90/5, they get Cameron for 18/2. So what I'm saying is we get the "next best thing". Tell me 50/4 for V-Mart wasn't fair, it would have been perfect. He catches 2 more seasons full time, then DH/1B/back up catcher for 2 seasons. But no, they only offered two options, 36/3, 42/4. Really? That close and you cant land a premium catcher (batting wise anyway)?

They spend oodles, by no means did I mean they spend like the A's, but they make many transactions (or lack of) under the impression that 2mil more per year is going to ruin them, as a team like the A's will actually feel the pain of that 2mil.

Now, lets think back: Prior to the 2004 season they got the best available starter in Schilling and the best available closer in Foulke..what happened? Championship! 2006 they got the best available pitcher, Josh Beckett, 2007 they went after DiceK who was being billed as the greatest pitcher in the history of baseball..they paid 51mill CASH to negotiate for him. Championship!

If they show up to the Cliff Lee auction, trade for Adrian Gonzo, or similar, then I'll be fine. They have it in them to go after these people, they just won't pull the trigger.

And I know that they are constrained by the size of Fenway, but they chose to keep that park instead of build a new one. Luckily, I like the bleachers, as any other tix are out of my price range.

Posted: Nov 28 2010 06:40 am

Nintendo is a lot like the Red Sox. They are flush with cash too, but they're never willing to grease third party developers' palms like Sony and MS do.

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Nov 28 2010 10:27 am

Syd Lexia wrote:

Nintendo is a lot like the Red Sox. They are flush with cash too, but they're never willing to grease third party developers' palms like Sony and MS do.

They were also both around for 100 years before anyone outside their niche market cared about them.

Posted: Nov 30 2010 02:09 pm

So the Rockies and Troy Tulowitzki are near a 7 year extension for around 20 mil per season. This figure seems a bit high for him. Yes, I do think he is an all-star caliber player, but a quarter of your team payroll at shortstop seems like a bit much. Now if they intend to spend a little more per year when this comes into play, then maybe I get it.

Joined: Dec 06 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 11244

Interesting article about if Jeter is worth keeping as an Icon:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/tom_verducci/11/30/derek.jeter.yankees/

Posted: Nov 30 2010 03:06 pm

Speaking as a Sox fan, I really don't care except that ANYTHING you do that makes the Yankees bend over and take it in the ass is AOK with me.

Posted: Nov 30 2010 03:22 pm

Great article. This will be his final contract, and as stated look at who/how the Yankees throw money around. Truly sad they would risk Jeter for a few million.

Posted: Dec 02 2010 11:40 pm

They aren't risking anything. Nobody is going to top the very generous offer they've made him, and he knows that his brand takes a hit if he leaves NY anyway. No other large market team is going to make a play for him, and he isn't going to go to Baltimore or Kansas City, not that any small market team is going to offer him $45m.

Also, it's not over a few million. The Yankees offered $3/45, and Jeter's camp is asking 4 or 5 years for between $92m and $120m. It's not a small number. Given that I'm not sure that Jeter is even an adequate starting SS in year three of this deal, they're right to hold back.

While it may seem that Jeter has just had "one bad year," he had a pretty disappointing year in 2008, and he's going to be 37 next season. There aren't a lot of really productive 37-year-old shortstops in MLB history, and there are even fewer 38 or 39-year-old ones. You don't sign a guy who just had the season Jeter had to a 5 year, $120m deal that pays him through his age 41 season.

Posted: Dec 03 2010 01:02 am

Again, your looking at it purely on stats, in my opinion that's bullshit with a player like Jeter.

I haven't seen any legit mention of what Jeter has asked for, and even if that is what he asked for, what's he supposed to do, not go high? Your supposed to ask high and meet somewhere in the middle.

This is a team that is paying 275 million to ARod, that's 27.5 million PER YEAR. Nearly twice what they are offering Jeter per year. Is A-Rod worth twice as much as Jeter to the Yankees? Fuck no. Not to mention, ARod got 10 years at about the same age.

The Yankees just gave AJ Burnett 16.5 million for 5 years, AJ Burnett SUCKS. Again, the Yankees have the money, it's not a big deal to overpay someone who has been such an intricate part of 5 championship teams. What should they pay him? I think nearer to 20mil for 4 seasons would be a fair middle ground.

And last I checked the Yankees are in the AL, meaning around year three he can shuffle into the DH instead of full time SS. People play into 40 in baseball all the time utilizing DH/1B/3B as options outside of shortstop.

Posted: Dec 03 2010 01:54 am

You want your DH to hit .270 with 15 HRs?

Posted: Dec 03 2010 02:18 am

Rydog wrote:

Again, your looking at it purely on stats, in my opinion that's bullshit with a player like Jeter.

I haven't seen any legit mention of what Jeter has asked for, and even if that is what he asked for, what's he supposed to do, not go high? Your supposed to ask high and meet somewhere in the middle.

This is a team that is paying 275 million to ARod, that's 27.5 million PER YEAR. Nearly twice what they are offering Jeter per year. Is A-Rod worth twice as much as Jeter to the Yankees? Fuck no. Not to mention, ARod got 10 years at about the same age.

The Yankees just gave AJ Burnett 16.5 million for 5 years, AJ Burnett SUCKS. Again, the Yankees have the money, it's not a big deal to overpay someone who has been such an intricate part of 5 championship teams. What should they pay him? I think nearer to 20mil for 4 seasons would be a fair middle ground.

And last I checked the Yankees are in the AL, meaning around year three he can shuffle into the DH instead of full time SS. People play into 40 in baseball all the time utilizing DH/1B/3B as options outside of shortstop.

A few things: A-Rod was given a ten year deal when he was four years younger than Jeter is now, so I'm not sure what this "same age" stuff is about.

A-Rod was coming off an MVP season, and is still an impact bat. Jeter is coming off his worst season at an age where he is unlikely to rebound.

Having overpaid A-Rod and Burnett doesn't mean that the Yankees are required to overpay for Jeter, too.

They don't have infinite money. Committing to a sharply declining shortstop into his 40s for 20+m/year is a good way to harm your ability to be competitive.

Jeter's current value is entirely tied up in his ability to provide above-average production for shortstop. His bat won't play at DH, at all, and it really won't play at DH in three years.

Contrary to popular belief, Jeter doesn't have magic winnability that makes him worth more than the sum of his offensive and defensive contributions on the field. His brand adds some monetary value, and that's where the 3/45 comes from, because it sure doesn't reflect the player he projects to be going forward.

Posted: Dec 03 2010 02:22 am

SuperAdventureSquad said a bunch of stuff I was thinking, but was too lazy to type out. Well done.

Also, looks like the Yankees have increased the offer, yet details aren't available right now. I love that. Keep wasting money, Yankees!

Posted: Dec 03 2010 02:44 am

Okay, I said "about the same age" and so using your logic, ARod had a 6 year deal at the same age.

And yes, they aren't required to overpay him, but they can.

I'm not positive on this but I'm fairly sure that ARod's clutch/postseason numbers are below average at best. And why is it all about the numeric stats? I can't stress enough the intangibles that I think play a big part in baseball. These people are together pretty much everyday for 8 months, a locker room / on field leader is very important. Good attitude and examples for new teammates, etc. This shit matters, you can't tell me otherwise, Jeter has these skills. And again, read the article GP posted, it makes several great points.

You guys do make good points, and 99 out of 100 times I would be on the same side, analyzing it the same, just not with the Yankees and Jeter.

Anyway, I think I'm done defending Jeter, It's making me feel dirty. But, he will definitely sign with the Yankees and it will be for more than 3/45, not because he is statistically worth it, but because the Yankees can afford to overpay their modern day icon.

Fuck you Yankees, go Sox!

Posted: Dec 03 2010 10:42 am

Yes, they made a longer commitment to A-Rod, but don't forget that:
1) he was coming off an MVP season, not the below-average season that Jeter just had
2) they almost immediately regretted it

No need to guess, the numbers are freely available:

Alex Rodriguez, career postseason: .296 BA, .396 OBP, .528 SLG
Derek Jeter, career postseason: .309 BA, .377 OBP, .472 SLG

Alex Rodriguez, career RISP: .300/.401/.543
Derek Jeter, career RISP: ..305/.399/.429

Alex Rodriguez, career Close & Late: .277/.375/.544
Derek Jeter, career Close & Late: .292/.386/.416

So Rodriguez has been the overall better hitter both in the playoffs and in regular season "clutch" situations. I'd give you their postseason clutch splits but:
1) no one tracks them and
2) the sample would be statistically insignificant.

The reason that I focus so much on statistics is because they are an objective record of actual events. They aren't subject to personal biases and they aren't subject to fault memory. Every time a sportswriter backs up an argument with "it seems like," you should assume that he's full of shit.

The reason that Derek Jeter has a reputation as a "clutch" player is that he's been a very good hitter over his career (particularly for SS), and he's had a tremendous number of chances in clutch situations. Clutch hitting isn't a repeatable skill that goes beyond regular hitting, contrary to what Joe Morgan might tell you.

So while the Yankees can overpay Jeter, it doesn't make it wise. Not just because they're tying up payroll in a player that is quickly becoming less productive, but also because they're locking themselves into a contract that is too big to move or swallow with a player that might not be an adequate starter in a couple of years.

Beyond that, the Yankees don't "owe" Jeter anything. They've already paid him handsomely for his contributions (only one player in MLB history has been paid more than Jeter), and the fact that he's been on several championship teams has been more a function of the talent around him than his own contributions. Yes, Jeter has been an excellent player, and has contributed to many winning teams, but many excellent players don't win titles because they have little talent around them.