SydLexia.com - The Forums :: View topic - What are your opinions on George W. Bush?

Posted: Sep 23 2008 10:57 pm

I'm just curious.

I personally think he is pretty useless but I'm sure some of you Amerc's no more about his presidancey than I would(being Canadian).

What are your thoughts? I see him as a terrible President, but I hear mainly what the news states and make conclusions through that. Does anyone who gives a shit about politics think he is as bad as advertised?

EDIT: title change, makes more sense from a discussion POV.

Posted: Sep 23 2008 10:59 pm

change hero to here.

Posted: Sep 23 2008 11:01 pm

Thank you. I'm so tired I can hardly type, but wanted to make a thread anyway.

Joined: Oct 12 2007 Posts: 821

I don't like him, and same goes for pretty much everyone I know. Still, he did become president, so someone had to like him.

Joined: Sep 22 2008 Posts: 289

Damn my honesty. And I'm the new guy, Not gonna be good.

Yeah. I'm a Bush supporter. I realize that this is going to be unpopular, but I'd really rather not get into a debate on it, though, so don't expect me to reply if I get bombarded. I get enough of that at the small, liberal arts college I'm at.

Title: Alexz Aficionado Joined: May 21 2008 Posts: 2889

Worst President we've ever had in the history of the United States. Nero only succeeded in burning down Rome, so he's very jealous of the damage Bush has caused.

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Yeah, I do think he is the worst president we've had, and I'm taking into account all 43 that I can think of. Hell, at least Franklin Pierce did nothing instead of actively wreak havoc on the country.

Joined: Aug 05 2008 Location: CA Posts: 867

There is so much wrong with him, I don't even know where to start. He will no doubt go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever. This president is the one real topic I get really heated over.

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower in a letter to his brother Edgar, November 8, 1954,

Joined: Aug 24 2005 Location: Mount Holly, NJ Posts: 1062

People jump to conclusions with the phrase "Worst President Ever."
That sort of thing can't be judged until years have gone by and the effects of the last eight years are 1) impacting the United States on a historical scale and 2) the labors of the administration are borne out (e.g., success or failure in Iraq via a lasting and stable state).

I also think it's stupid to call any one politician (president or no), the best or worst as a blanket term. It's probably best to judge individual policies. In that spirit, I'll go first:

War in Iraq: Originally supported it, now time for Iraq to stand on its own, still can't see how one less tyrant in the world is a bad thing, think the military should be redeployed to Afghanistan in phases over the next 12-16 months, with counterinsurgency strike teams to stay:
Kubo grade: C+ pre Petreaus takeover, B+ post Petreaus takeover

Economy: Two words: Alan Greenspan. I'm not for regulation of business by any means, but there should have been some check on the asshole CEOs who ran their companies into the ground while making off with m/billions. Also, those quick to bash Bush in terms of the economy can probably only do so on two grounds: 1) the stimulus packages are arguably stupid (although I must admit, I like my bonus $300) and 2) the war in Iraq is causing the country to go further into debt, which we'll be paying off forever.
The current economic crisis goes back about 10-15 years when mortgage firms started giving mortgages to assholes that couldn't pay for them, now, lo and behold, the "subprime mortgages" (aka: deadbeats) aren't paying which = companies need to be bailed out. So, want to blame someone for today's economic crisis, its part Greenspan, part Clinton, part Bush.
Oil prices though... the war in Iraq has, for better or worse, destabalized the region where we get our lifeblood. Speculation of less supply = higher prices = bent over and raped.
Kubo grade: C/C+

Foreign policy (Defense): This issue right here is the reason I consider myself a Republican. I catch a lot of shit here (on campus) for having this ideology, but hell, I still have it. I'm hawkish. I'm okay with a first strike policy if the government believes an attack is imminent. Do I think the Bush Doctrine overstepped the boundary of what constitutes "imminent?" Yeah. I think so. Do I think the first-strike policy per se is a bad thing? Hell no.
Kubo grade: C- on execution, A- on ideology

Foreign Policy (Relationship with Allies): If you read in the news, you'd swear that everyone on the planet hates our guts. Read beyond just the war.. we are still very closely allied with most European powers, NATO, and a good chunk of Asia (i.e. Georgian conflict, general Russian aggression, continued technological advancement in concert with Japan). Economically and militarily, we are still a good friend to have, and most of Europe knows this. At the same time, the Bush administration may be hawkish, but it ain't stupid. We may have pissed off many allies with our handling of the war, but you can bet your ass that we still have each other's backs in conflicts we mutually find important (i.e. Poland and missile defense system).
Kubo grade: A-

Education: No Child Left Behind is stupid.
Kubo grade: F

General rights: Personally, I have no problem with gays right to marry or a woman's right to choose to have an abortion. At the same time, I'm not gung ho about either one of those topics. I'm not gay, so the issue doesn't concern me directly, and as an adult male, I can make responsible choices about birth control myself (wearing a rubber). Still, I think the Bush administration dropped the ball when it came to seeing where the future was going... gays are going to get married, and women are going to have abortions. I just think the Bush admin. is bull-headed when it comes to this sort of thing. It's more a "You guys are dumbasses" reaction from me rather than an "OMFG WTF!!!" reaction.
Kubo grade: C

Overall: I'm just going to shoot from the hip here. And please, those who disagree, don't take offense, it's not meant in that way. This observation is coming from about 4-5 years of graduate school political debates. People that bash Bush and the administration generally have no idea what they are talking about. There is plenty of reason to bash the present administration, but people generally have no fucking clue. They watch TV and they hear their friends and they get the sound bites without digging deeper into the story behind the actions of the administration. I couldn't give less of a shit if someone attacks the ideologies of my adopted party and the president... that's what democracy is.
That said, Bush is nowhere near the worst president ever. Wikipedia search Andrew Jackson (if you're not familiar with him, note the Indian removal section).

The sad part, to me, about all the Bush bashing that has become so fashionable over the last few years is that people have completely ignored how shitty Congress has been... both the Republican and Democratically dominated Congresses. That's where laws are made, folks.

Okay, sorry so long, but I get fired up about politics, and as I said, I think it's more useful to judge individual policies rather than individual people.

Overall Kubo grade for President Bush: B-

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Sep 24 2008 12:48 am

I think Bush was a very well-meaning person surrounded by some very screwy people trying to push their own agenda in a very crappy political climate. Very ineffective, particularly when the people propping him up abandoned him.

Anyone naming him "Worst president" is viewing him through the mirror of the present. We had some seriously bad ones around the civil war era.

That said, I won't be sorry to see the back of him.

Posted: Sep 24 2008 12:52 am

I agree with you about Andrew Jackson being the worst president. While the opposition really dont like Bush, they hated Andrew Jackson even more, and rightly so, the man wanted to wipe Indians off the face of the earth and took more liberties as president than Bush ever has.

Overall I started liking Bush about a month ago finally we he agreed that we needed to do offshore drilling. The only person now that I dont like in his administration is Cheney,I just dont trust the guy, but maybe his personality isnt likeable even though he is still capable for the job.

I consider myself a conservative democrat and I think the crisis we face in this country is our own fault. We honestly need a new infrastructure change from the way down but no one wants to touch that third rail because it costs so damn much, patching seems to be easier.

Joined: Aug 05 2008 Location: CA Posts: 867

Kubo wrote:

People jump to conclusions with the phrase "Worst President Ever."....

I also think it's stupid to call any one politician (president or no), the best or worst as a blanket term.

I said that he will in no doubt go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever. I stand by that. Furthermore, if in some twilight zone version of the future, he does not then there would be something severely wrong with this country.

In my opinion, talking about this on a retro gaming forum, is like talking politics or religion in a bar. It really can't benefit anyone. And as I said, I get heated on the topic and I think it best I not do some "point to point, hows and why" list on it, although part of me does want to. Confused

Edit: About Bush hating being fashionable, and how most people that bash the Bush Administration generally don't know what they are talking about; I really dislike that statement and I know that you respectfully stated "generally" for the latter, but this can goes both ways.

The last 8 years is a prime example of how the "general" population can be spoon feed bullshit by an administration over and over again and still let it happen because Fox news has the sound bytes and daddy republican likes his tax breaks. Maybe it only works for so long, and now those "ignorant" people are starting to see the strings regardless of their lack of 4 to 5 years of Graduate school political debates.

Posted: Sep 24 2008 01:01 am

i agree who really gives a fuck, none of the shit really effects us if you really think about it

Posted: Sep 24 2008 01:12 am

Kubo wrote:

The current economic crisis goes back about 10-15 years when mortgage firms started giving mortgages to assholes that couldn't pay for them, now, lo and behold, the "subprime mortgages" (aka: deadbeats) aren't paying which = companies need to be bailed out. So, want to blame someone for today's economic crisis, its part Greenspan, part Clinton, part Bush.
Oil prices though... the war in Iraq has, for better or worse, destabalized the region where we get our lifeblood. Speculation of less supply = higher prices = bent over and raped.
Kubo grade: C/C+

Couple points I disagree with, but all in all in agreeance, although I would give bush a much lower grade than you did. He pretty much embodies everything I dislike in a presidents policies. The Neo-Con Evangalist positions on personal rights, and the liberal position of spending and borrowing, IE the stimulus package. One thing I would say is actually not Bush's fault is oil prices. The destabalization of the middle east really has little to do with oil prices. It's simple supply and demand. We used to pay 1.30 a gallon because there was a surplus of oil being produced. We were the primary purchasers and OPEC was drilling more oil than it was selling. Now with the growth of 3rd world countries such as India and China, more and more average citizens of those countries can afford cars, greatly spiking the demand. I guess in a sense we are kind of responsible for this, due to outsourcing to said countries, but really, there isn't a whole lot we can do about oil prices now that those countries are consuming significantly more oil. Best we can do is work on more fuel efficent vehicles, (the last 3 months with gas dropping and not coincadentally truck sales dropping is evidence of this) and strive for alternate fuel sources.

Posted: Sep 24 2008 01:18 am

Ermac wrote:

i agree who really gives a fuck, none of the shit really effects us if you really think about it

This apathetic attitude is very reflective of the common US citizen. It does effect you. It really does. 9/11 was a result of blow back, due to our meddling in foreign affairs, that certainly effected a lot of US citizens that lost their lives. You honestly think we are hated because we are free? Also, what about the Iraqi citizens that died? Do you not give a fuck about them? Our soldiers fighting and dying for the wrong reasons? I'm not suggesting that everyone should be an expert on politics, but to say these things do not effect you is very ignorant.

Joined: Aug 05 2008 Location: CA Posts: 867

Burt Reynolds wrote:

Ermac wrote:

i agree who really gives a fuck, none of the shit really effects us if you really think about it

This empathetic attitude is very reflective of the common US citizen. It does effect you. It really does. 9/11 was a result of blow back, due to our meddling in foreign affairs, that certainly effected a lot of US citizens that lost their lives. You honestly think we are hated because we are free? Also, what about the Iraqi citizens that died? Do you not give a fuck about them? Our soldiers fighting and dying for the wrong reasons? I'm not suggesting that everyone should be an expert on politics, but to say these things do not effect you is very ignorant.

I think he was responding to me saying that maybe this forum is not the best place to discuss this.

Edit: Actually, I really think the only thing it can really accomplish is pissing each other off.

Posted: Sep 24 2008 01:23 am

Probable Muppet wrote:

I think he was responding to me saying that maybe this forum is not the best place to discuss this.

If that's the case, then my apologies. I tend to avoid political debates on forums, but it's hard to not express my opinion sometimes.

Joined: Aug 05 2008 Location: CA Posts: 867

Burt Reynolds wrote:

Probable Muppet wrote:

I think he was responding to me saying that maybe this forum is not the best place to discuss this.

If that's the case, then my apologies. I tend to avoid political debates on forums, but it's hard to not express my opinion sometimes.

Yeah, the internet and it's saftey through anonymity is almost worse than the "religion and politics in a bar" thing. At least in a bar you have the persistent fear, or even the expectation, that you may well be knocked the fuck out by a mad drunk guy for saying something.

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Loans are a big factor in the crash, but if you look at the figures since Bush has been president, anyone could have seen it coming. Jobs leaving the US, wages decreasing steadily income increased (rich get richer, poor get poorer, in a sense), and constant revelations of abuses of ethics and laws by many companies were big signs of what we would eventually be seeing today. Presidents do have an effect on the market, but only to the extent to which they support legislation that allows the market to go up and down. Keeping that in mind, these are the reasons I greatly dislike Bush:

1) Concentration of power- combination of abuse of signing statements, imprisonment without habeas corpus, and no accountability of any possible illegal acts (i.e. rejecting subpeonas) add up to an administration that wants to perform the duty of all three branches of the government with no checks or balances to rein in their abuses.

2) Pure Corruption- Look at the rampant granting of no-bid contracts in Iraq. We're dishing out billions to companies KBR to endanger our troops with food lines, electric wiring connected to water mains, tainted food, and forcing soldiers to escort empty vehicles across enemy lines. This is while KBR (a Halliburton project company) workers live in Kuwaiti resorts, with a fleet of Chevy Suburbans in the parking lot.

3) The damned war- There were no WMD's or connections to Al Qaeda. Yeah, he was an evil bastard, but so were other countless dictators in the world- why him? That, and George's goons fired any army officer who told them that they'd need more/better troops and equipment than the white house was planning to commit. As a result, we have an unwinnable war (yeah, the surge WILL fail, if you look at the fact that bribing militias is the primary reason attacks are down) that's contributing to a weakened economy, weaker homeland security, and a diminished world view.

Those are the big three, and I could write pages on each of them (I only provided a synopsis for the tl;dr crowd). This also doesn't take into account a hatchet team disguised as a justice system, a terrible foreign policy, and many others. Everyone tries to cut Bush slack by saying something like "Well, he's a nice guy" or "It's not him that's doing it, it's corporations/his cabinet/lobbyists." Yeah, well, the best thing a president can do is pick the right people for a job, and if all he can do is pick an administration brimming with incompetent or corrupt, and if George can't even do that, he doesn't deserve any slack or excuse. Also keep in mind that this is coming from a mega-left-winger who isn't a fan of Clinton, and liked Bush Sr.

Joined: Aug 24 2005 Location: Mount Holly, NJ Posts: 1062

Probable Muppet wrote:

In my opinion, talking about this on a retro gaming forum, is like talking politics or religion in a bar. It really can't benefit anyone. And as I said, I get heated on the topic and I think it best I not do some "point to point, hows and why" list on it, although part of me does want to. Confused

Edit: About Bush hating being fashionable, and how most people that bash the Bush Administration generally don't know what they are talking about; I really dislike that statement and I know that you respectfully stated "generally" for the latter, but this can goes both ways.

The last 8 years is a prime example of how the "general" population can be spoon feed bullshit by an administration over and over again and still let it happen because Fox news has the sound bytes and daddy republican likes his tax breaks. Maybe it only works for so long, and now those "ignorant" people are starting to see the strings regardless of their lack of 4 to 5 years of Graduate school political debates.

Two points:
1) You're right about the dumbass talk going both ways. In reading my previous post, I can see how it sounded like I was pointing my finger at the left while giving the right a free pass... that's my bad. Let me rephrase: Generally, nobody knows that the fuck they are talking about and everyone seems subject to sound bites they hear on cable news. That is my biggest pet peeve with most people when talking politics... they don't do homework on the topic.

2) I understand sydlexia.com to be more than a retro gaming forum. That might be what it's primary focus is, but do a little background checking into the forums and you'll see that this is like Round 512 in political discussion here, so I have to disagree. Syd and the mods have been cool with this sort of conversation before, so why not now? I've had some of the best political discussions I've ever been in on this forum, so I say feel free to list point by point as I did. That shit's cathartic. Talking politics here is better than (god forbid) talking to a fellow grad student- at least here I don't get eye rolls and disregarded as soon as I reveal my political philosophies.

Joined: Aug 24 2005 Location: Mount Holly, NJ Posts: 1062

Probable Muppet wrote:

and now those "ignorant" people are starting to see the strings regardless of their lack of 4 to 5 years of Graduate school political debates.

Also, is this an implication that I am looking my nose down at anyone who's not in grad school regarding political knowledge?
If so- shove it.
If not- disregard and my apologies for misunderstanding.

Posted: Sep 24 2008 02:51 am

I say screw McCain and Obama and elected a true American.....

http://www.sydlexia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6416&highlight=

Joined: Aug 24 2005 Location: Mount Holly, NJ Posts: 1062

Ermac wrote:

I say screw McCain and Obama and elected a true American.....

http://www.sydlexia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6416&highlight=

Shotgun Secretary of State!

Posted: Sep 24 2008 07:03 am

I think the fact he is a terrible public speaker has really hurt his presidency.

Posted: Sep 24 2008 10:18 am

His public speaking in english is terrible. From what I have seen his public speaking in Spanish is pretty solid. Kinda strange.

One of my biggest gripes is the whole war in Iraq. Yes, getting rid of Sadam was not a bad idea, but the reson Bush attacked was stated that Iraq was linked to 9/11 and that they had WMD's, wich as far as I know, have yet to be found.

If he just told everyone the real reason he was invading, to remove Sadam and bring stability to Iraq, then I doubt people would hate him so much.

The U.S. should focus on Afghanistan, that's where more of the people responsible for 9/11 seem to be. I know Canada is over there right now even though it shouldn't really involve us.